Songs without Mason on drums

[Chaim]

I think Nick meant See-Saw when he wrote about Norman Smith playing drums in Remember A Day in his book. Later in an interview he told the same story, but the song title he mentioned was See-Saw. Also, in the book Nick says that the song wasn't their "usual pounding style" or something like that, which fits See-Saw better than Remember A Day.

The drumming style of 'Remember a Day' is very different from Pink Floyd's usual style.
And I think it's a style that might be too difficult for Mason.
Also, I seem to hear two drummers. The drumming is rather busy.

I'd say that Mason might wish he could drum as good as on 'Remember a Day'.

'See-Saw' barely has drums, has it?

See-Saw does have drums - mainly snare I guess - and the time signatures keep changing (something he couldn't handle later on The Wall and The Final Cut). Anyway, Nick has told the story two different times and both times he mentioned a different song. Either he mentioned the wrong song in his book (Remember A Day) or in the interview (See-Saw). I've always believed that he mentioned the right one in the interview, but it seems that I was mistaken.

[DarkSideFreak]

The Mortal Remains tries to deal with this, here are details from the catalogue -

Carmine Appice - drums on 'Dogs of War'
Ray Cooper - percussion on 'The Final Cut'
Steve Forman - percussion on 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason'
Jim Keltner - drums on 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason'
Andy Newmark - drums on 'Two Suns in the Sunset'
Jeff Porcaro - drums on 'Mother'
Joe Porcaro - snare on 'Bring the Boys Back Home'
Norman Smith - drums on 'Remember A Day' and on 'Sysyphus'
Gary Wallis - percussion on the 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason' and 'Division Bell' tours
John 'Willie' Wilson - drums on the 'Wall' tour 1980/81

I don't think Norman Smith played on Sysyphus?

Also, the drumming on Money '81 is a drum machine.

[ZiggyZipgun]

I don't think Norman Smith played on Sysyphus?

Also, the drumming on Money '81 is a drum machine.

There is percussion on "Sysyphus", though it's mostly cymbals and gongs, and I believe a number of sounds that were then subjected to some very avant-garde tape editing, a la Geesin.

I agree that "See-Saw" would be the odd part played by Norman Smith, not "Remember a Day".

"Dave had programmed the groove using the recently released Linn Drum Machine, and then I went into the studio to overdub live drums. Unfortunately there were some discrepancies between my timing and the machine's, and James [Guthrie] felt he needed to confront me directly. He explained that there were consistency problems in both timbre and timing. He recalls that I listened intently to his comments, nodding and weighing each word carefully, and then responded, 'Mmm, timing and consistency were never my strong points. I was always much better at the after-gig parties.'"

The drum machine track was not in the mix.

[DarkSideFreak]

"Dave had programmed the groove using the recently released Linn Drum Machine, and then I went into the studio to overdub live drums. Unfortunately there were some discrepancies between my timing and the machine's, and James [Guthrie] felt he needed to confront me directly. He explained that there were consistency problems in both timbre and timing. He recalls that I listened intently to his comments, nodding and weighing each word carefully, and then responded, 'Mmm, timing and consistency were never my strong points. I was always much better at the after-gig parties.'"

The drum machine track was not in the mix.

It was, exactly for the problem described by Nick... they probably felt that his part was not good enough (which probably underlines why he was so unsure about his own abilities in the 80s) and reverted to the original programmed part. Listen to it - it's 100% a LinnDrum, with all the typical never varying crash sounds, the very recognizable snare timbre and no fills at all. Nick never sounded like that.

[ZiggyZipgun]

The drum machine track was not in the mix.

I Listen to it - it's 100% a LinnDrum, with all the typical never varying crash sounds, the very recognizable snare timbre and no fills at all. Nick never sounded like that.

I don't have an original pressing of A Collection of Great Dance Songs to reference, but the version on Spotify certainly doesn't sound like a pre-production 8-bit LM-1.

https://youtu.be/ofKyPTXt5co

I'm sure they didn't just give up on recording live drums, and wouldn't have hesitated bringing in Jeff Porcaro or Andy Newmarket before resorting using sampled drums. Compression? Yes. EQ? Absolutely. I think it just sounds somewhat mechanical due to Nick playing to a pre-recorded, quantized drum track, which would've felt very unnatural to him.

[DarkSideFreak]

I don't have an original pressing of A Collection of Great Dance Songs to reference, but the version on Spotify certainly doesn't sound like a pre-production 8-bit LM-1.

I'm sure they didn't just give up on recording live drums, and wouldn't have hesitated bringing in Jeff Porcaro or Andy Newmarket before resorting using sampled drums. Compression? Yes. EQ? Absolutely. I think it just sounds somewhat mechanical due to Nick playing to a pre-recorded, quantized drum track, which would've felt very unnatural to him.

We both listened to the song on Spotify

And no, that's still not live drumming at all on Money '81. It's the same "style" as on ZZ Top's Eliminator album, and that was at least 95% programming.

Listen to any turnarounds. Listen to the timbre of the snare (same as in the video you linked) and the slow crash cymbals. Or the two cymbals that always go off the exact same way over the verse - it's literally a loop, there's not one drum or cymbal hit that's not on a beat. No syncopation, no variation in the pattern at all. Even chained to a sequencer/metronome Nick wouldn't have sounded as unimaginative as this. The turnaround at 2:56 sounds downright amateurish! Typical failed attempt to program a fill. And the turnaround on 3:40 is half-time compared to what Nick did on the original. The toms in the dry part are the only thing that sounds a bit live but compare to the original - Nick used the snare to great effect in that part too and especially in the build-up, whereas it only gets hit once in this version. Notice again how the tom rolls repeat *exactly* the same way twice across this section. And in the third chorus, there is no snare or drum roll in sight (4:35, 4:42, 4:45 onwards and around 5:00 in the original), all just cymbal crashes, all on the same beat.

Obviously David spent some time getting it to sound somewhat acceptable (especially considering that the song is mostly in 7) and didn't use some of the "fancier" sounds the machine had, so it's not as obvious as those preset patterns showcased in the video. But it's still not live at all.

PS: "Newmarket" lol

[ZiggyZipgun]

But it's still not live at all.

We are talking about Pink Floyd, though - pioneers of beat-synched tape loops! I'd say it's still plausible that they cut up several of Nick's takes and made it work. It also wouldn't surprise me if they replaced the original LM-1 samples with better ones during later remasterings. For the 1974 Wembley recording included in the Immersion sets, they had to copy and paste Nick's kick drum for most of the show because the mic cable had shit the bed.

PS: "Newmarket" lol

That was actually a funny auto-correct - my phone apparently remembered me writing something about an ancestor of mine that died in the Battle of Newmarket Crossroads in 1862. No offense to Andy or session musicians in general!

[flashback]

When ya think about it, shouldn't this thread be in the Nick Mason area of the forum?

[ZiggyZipgun]

When ya think about it, shouldn't this thread be in the Nick Mason area of the forum?

Not my pig, not my farm.

[mosespa]

Also the rerecording of Money on the collection of great dancesongs had Gilmour on drums.

On everything except sax, in fact.

[DarkSideFreak]

But it's still not live at all.

We are talking about Pink Floyd, though - pioneers of beat-synched tape loops! I'd say it's still plausible that they cut up several of Nick's takes and made it work. It also wouldn't surprise me if they replaced the original LM-1 samples with better ones during later remasterings. For the 1974 Wembley recording included in the Immersion sets, they had to copy and paste Nick's kick drum for most of the show because the mic cable had shit the bed.

After all the evidence I already brought forth that this recording has all the hallmarks of a programmed track?

I only wish I had a digital file of the song - preferably of the original CD (though I really don't believe they would remix a song on what's just supposed to be an ordinary remaster) - so I could do null tests in Audacity, i.e. finding out whether the bits that repeat are actually 100% identical.

[ZiggyZipgun]

I only wish I had a digital file of the song - preferably of the original CD (though I really don't believe they would remix a song on what's just supposed to be an ordinary remaster) - so I could do null tests in Audacity, i.e. finding out whether the bits that repeat are actually 100% identical.

That would be interesting! I thought about doing that with live recordings of Roger's shows to see what parts are lip-synched, but...life's too short. I can certainly send you an mp3.

[TheLazenby]

And don't forget, we do have the demo of "Mother" where Nick DOES play (and rightfully gets a bit confused over the complicated time signatures).

[ZiggyZipgun]

Oh, and also....

Cirrus Minor
Green is the Colour
Sysyphus
Grandchester Meadows
Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict
The Narrow Way
Seamus
Speak to Me
On the Run
Pigs on the Wing
Another Brick in the Wall, Part 1
Goodbye Blue Sky
Goodbye Cruel World
Is There Anybody Out There?
Nobody Home
Vera
Outside the Wall
When the Tigers Broke Free
One of the Few
Paranoid Eyes
Get Your Filthy Hands Off My Desert
Southampton Dock
Signs of Life
Round and Round
A New Machine, Parts 1 & 2

[Kerry King]

and also

The Grand Vizier's Garden Party (Exit)