The Later Years 1986-2014

General discussion about Pink Floyd.
Luca
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Luca » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:34 am

mabewa wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:26 am
Again, I'd love to hear what Andy Jackson has to say about this.
I'd love it, too. But I don't think the Gilmour side is too eager to pick up a fight against him. They chose the Back to the future's path: they are erasing Carin from existence... deleting screeshots and replacing keyboard parts or burying them in the mix. Apparently, they didn't even invite him at the NY screening of DSoT.
mabewa wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:26 am
By the way, you mention Carin's stating that he asked for the Division Bell credits to be rectified... do you have any more information about exactly what happened there?
No, all the information I got come from his fb page. I noticed that he modified nine times ( <.8.> ) his comments: unless it's a facebook bug, Carin needs seriously to stay away from socials.

First version:
Rick didn’t write much of it. High Hopes, Great Day For Freedom, Lost For Words etc he didn’t jags anything to do with. Marooned is just a loose chord progression, so I just played what I felt to those chords, the rest were things I arranged Like Keep Talking I came up with the sequence that is the bed of the song & played over that.
I hadn’t looked at the credits in years.
They are pretty strange to say the least.
Last edit, three weeks later:
Rick didn’t write the songs I mentioned. High Hopes, Great Day For Freedom, Lost For Words etc he didn’t have anything to do with the writing. Marooned is just a chord progression, not an actual song, so I just played what I felt to those chords, the rest were things I arranged like Keep Talking I came up with the sequence that is the bed of the song & played over that.
I hadn’t looked at the credits in years.
They are pretty strange to say the least now that you’ve reminded me.
They were ever so slightly corrected in the second pressing of DB, but reverted back to their original incorrect credits for subsequent releases.

Luca
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Luca » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:16 pm

raisemyrent wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:56 am
Indeed it’s funny to think that Wright isn’t really on TDB that much.
mabewa wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:13 am
As for Carin's statements, to my memory, it seems that he claims to have played all the keyboards on 4 songs: Cluster One, Marooned, Lost for Words, and a 4th one which I don't remember. 'Cluster One' is another claim that I frankly find difficult to believe--some of the synths definitely sound like Carin, but the rest sounds much more like Rick. And again, you get another case of Carin stating that Rick did not playing on a song he co-wrote.
Cluster one: Carin modified his statement, saying that he played "grand" piano, while Cluster one is performed on midi piano. So at least this one is Rick's stuff :)

What do you want from me: another huge question mark. According to JC, Rick, the composer, didn't play anything of value here. Really strange, maybe another case of the bad memory musician syndrome that Mabewa referred to.

Poles apart: Rick hammond and solo

Marooned: the most controversial one. Wright spoke about himself being a composer more than a performer, and pointed out that his most valuable contributions were on the hammond: "I've written on it. I'm singing on it. I think it's a much better album than the last one. it's got more of the old Floydian feel. I think we could have gone further, but we are now operating as a band. Only Nick has played the drums, and my Hammond organ is back on most tracks". But he also said "My influence can be heard on tracks like Marooned and Cluster One". Finally, nothing came up with the Grammy Award and the 2014 Space station/Chernobyl video.

A great day for freedom: Carin on piano without doubts. Rick's synth as on Pulse?

Wearing: Rick's voice, midi piano as in Evrika and synth solo.

Take it back: this could be mostly a Gilmour/Ezrin affair, with a bit of Carin's whiz kid programming

Coming back to life: recently surfaced that the drums were played by Wallis. As for keyboards, Rick's hammond at least, imo.

Keep talking: synth and solo by Rick, Hammond by Carin. This could be true, since the hammond part is very similar to my ears on both live and studio versions.

Lost for words: according to JC, the live version on TLY is a fake, but actually the keyboard parts sound different. Bad memory again, imo.

High hopes: as Mabewa wrote above.

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by raisemyrent » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:10 pm

I never saw any claims from Carin about cluster one. That one screams Rick. I mean it’s sparse notes! There’s an early version out there that sounds like rick. I also doubt it’s MIDI.
What do you want from me. The intro Rhodes sounding solo might be Carin. Imitating Rick. The chord sequence has Rick all over it (the ascending chords), which is where the credit could come from.
Take it back coming back to life etc in fact most of the album final production could be Carin.
So drums on coming back to life are Wallis eh? Can we blame him for the cowbell then? I can live with that.
I think what Carin said about the new live version of lost for words is that it sounds suspiciously close to the album. He said the parts are identical and he is right. I suspect some of it is tapes that were layered on top either live or for this release (eg the intro). He also said it was very likely that for the rehearsals he had all those parts cued up on a kurzweil. The Kenny Rogers piano (argh something in the back of my throat) sounds live and the guitars definitely sound live. So do the vocals. So there’s a chance his statements are all factual and the version is still “live”. Maybe all this kurzweil parts needed is why they dropped it. Or maybe because it’s not such a good floyd song.

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Kerry King » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:49 pm

mabewa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:43 am
musicians are often very poor sources on who played what on albums
Not true. When Gilmour said "a lot" he probably meant a "significant amount". Who knows better than the band members when it comes to who played what on their own albums?
mabewa wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:26 am
Or maybe Carin is just suffering from the bad memory that often leads musicians to make these kinds of claims decades after the fact.
Maybe he's just a liar but Carin certainly knows more about it than you do. You're trying to piece together "the truth" (decades after the fact) based on stuff you've read and your own questionable ear. Wright was not such a distinctive sounding keyboardist during the later years when there was not as much space for him to noodle around freely and show his personality. I don't think he's at his best with tightly structured material. I think he burned out in the late 70s and that's why he was dismissed. I think he was brought back later because pink floyd was a joke when they were down to Gilmour and Mason. They needed him to retain their integrity as a band.

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by mabewa » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:13 am

Kerry King wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:49 pm
mabewa wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:43 am
musicians are often very poor sources on who played what on albums
Not true. When Gilmour said "a lot" he probably meant a "significant amount". Who knows better than the band members when it comes to who played what on their own albums?
mabewa wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:26 am
Or maybe Carin is just suffering from the bad memory that often leads musicians to make these kinds of claims decades after the fact.
Maybe he's just a liar but Carin certainly knows more about it than you do. You're trying to piece together "the truth" (decades after the fact) based on stuff you've read and your own questionable ear. Wright was not such a distinctive sounding keyboardist during the later years when there was not as much space for him to noodle around freely and show his personality. I don't think he's at his best with tightly structured material. I think he burned out in the late 70s and that's why he was dismissed. I think he was brought back later because pink floyd was a joke when they were down to Gilmour and Mason. They needed him to retain their integrity as a band.
You're missing my point.

I've read decades of statements from various people involved about the recording of this album, and Carin's statement appear to contradict a lot of what's been said about it over the years. In my experience (being a fanatical fan of multiple bands and being a real geek about the question of who-played-what), musicians are a surprisingly poor source of information about this kind of stuff, and the production/engineering team is much better. And when musicians come in decades later and start making claims that contradict multiple earlier accounts, the burden of proof is really on them. That's especially true when living musicians start to cast shade on the contributions of dead musicians. Sometimes it even gets reversed (claims from Johnny Rotten that Glen Matlock played a lot of the bass on Never Mind the Bullocks, which Matlock himself and the engineers insist is not true, stating that it was Steve Jones, which Jones himself agrees on--pretty much the only thing that everyone can agree on is the Sid Vicious played almost no bass!)

As for Gilmour, the blanket statement he made was that he had played a lot of the bass guitar on Pink Floyd's albums and that Waters jokingly thanked him whenever he won a Best Bass Player poll. If he had just said 'I played a lot of the bass on The Wall and Animals,' that would be a different story. But 'Pink Floyd albums' sounds like he's talking about the 11 albums that both Waters and Gilmour appeared on, not the 2 albums Waters-era albums. It's the kind of statement that deserves to be called out, without better evidence to the contrary.

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by raisemyrent » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:00 am

Well he plays bass on one of these days and then roger joins in. So maybe he plays bass on meddle and all the albums between it and animals.


I had the opportunity to watch some highlights and I don’t get why Clare Tory gets so much hate. Not a second out of tune. Pretty good performance. Rachel fury in the other hand...

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by PinkPhishPhan » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:23 am

David’s thank you to Roger was added into Pulse.

That’s cool. And was a strong conscious move.

C’mon roger! Chill.

(And the new edit of Pulse is sick. Sounds incredible and SO much more up close shots of the band - the WHOLE band!)

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Niebla de Fuego » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:57 pm

PinkPhishPhan wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:23 am
David’s thank you to Roger was added into Pulse. ...
It's been there always, since the 1995 VHS release. It's also in the 2006 DVD. :roll:

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by raisemyrent » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:33 pm

Indeed. The sound is also the same right?


Isn’t there a legendary story of roger being there one night and then inviting him on stage and him storming off?
The lyrics for lost for words also refer to a peace offer from Gilmour before the album even came out.

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by mabewa » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:32 am

raisemyrent wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:00 am
Well he plays bass on one of these days and then roger joins in. So maybe he plays bass on meddle and all the albums between it and animals.


I had the opportunity to watch some highlights and I don’t get why Clare Tory gets so much hate. Not a second out of tune. Pretty good performance. Rachel fury in the other hand...
If Dave plays on OBC or DSotM, then no-one's ever been able to pinpoint which songs. If he plays at all on those albums, he's deliberately imitating Roger, as Roger has a very different style from Dave. Dave also generally isn't credited with any bass parts on TFC, despite the fact that Roger plays lots of acoustic guitar. Dave didn't play much on TFC besides the few solos, basically.

The one song that generally isn't credited to Dave that really really sounds like him is actually Pillow of Winds--I remember reading somewhere that Roger doesn't play fretless bass, so maybe that's an example of a song that Dave played on that usually gets credited to Roger. But not much else in their early or mid-period albums even sounds like Dave playing.

The second side of Animals is interesting because on Pigs, Dave is playing bass like Dave (very busy), but on Sheep, he's essentially playing the same part that Roger had been playing live for years, hence it sounds a lot like Roger. The only reason they did it that way was that Roger came up with a rhythm guitar part that he wanted to play, so Dave played his old bass part when they were cutting the basic track. Pretty sure that if the old Roger bass part hadn't existed, Dave wouldn't have come up with that particular part.

To bring this back to TFC, Carin generally sounds like Rick only when he's playing a part that Rick originally wrote, which is why there really isn't much on the original AMLOR that sounds like Rick, except for stuff like the organ on On the Turning Away (which is Rick) or the organ on Dogs of War (which is Bill Payne, who happens to have a fairly similar organ style). There are a fair number of fairly anonymous parts on TFC that could be either musician, but other parts (for example, both the organ and electric piano on What Do You Want From Me) that sound like typical Rick playing and is generally credited as such on various resources.

Of course, it's possible that Carin redid some parts that Rick originally came up with, but I suspect that in most cases, the live breakdown is similar to what they did on the record, and in some cases they are likely doing what they did for the Waters-era Floyd stuff: Rick takes one of his old parts, and Carin takes the other. Rick liked to overdub a few parts in the studio, but he wasn't one of those keyboardists like Rick Wakeman who liked playing two different keyboards at once live.

I gotta say: some of Carin's documented parts on TDB (like the piano on High Hopes) must have been extremely boring to play. That's something that Dave just programmed and then Carin had to play the programmed part in the studio. Not too surprising that Rick preferred to just add some Kurzweil textures rather than replicate Dave's programmed piano part.

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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by jambo » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:21 am

raisemyrent wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:33 pm
Indeed. The sound is also the same right?


Isn’t there a legendary story of roger being there one night and then inviting him on stage and him storming off?
The lyrics for lost for words also refer to a peace offer from Gilmour before the album even came out.
The story I remember is Roger being invited to play at one of the Earls Court gigs on a night when they would do DSotM, but him turning it down.