The Division Bell, want some opinions...

General discussion about Pink Floyd.
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Real Pink in the Inside
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Post by Real Pink in the Inside »

quicksilver wrote:I don't think it really has to be made into a RvD argument. I just really believe that the formula sprung out of a callaboration of the 2 more than anything.
OH, come on. It's ridiculous to give Gilmour as much credit as Waters, and to pretend they were ever a FULL-BLOWN collaboration.
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Post by NewEarthMud »

It's like giving the same amount of credit to Mike Campbell as you give to Tom Petty..

That's really how I look at it.
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Post by flashback »

I have to say I for 1 think the formula was set before Roger took complete control.I do think that it was something they got comfortable with early on and continued to use going forward.Everything can't be cridited to Roger.
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Post by Spinoza »

Real Pink in the Inside wrote:
quicksilver wrote:I don't think it really has to be made into a RvD argument. I just really believe that the formula sprung out of a callaboration of the 2 more than anything.
OH, come on. It's ridiculous to give Gilmour as much credit as Waters, and to pretend they were ever a FULL-BLOWN collaboration.
What are you argumenting again ? Sorry boy , but what makes a group great are the music and the concept/lyrics. And that musicsound everybody loves, there is only one man in the world that can really give it to us: David Gilmour. Even when one would hypothetically say that Roger wrote every single note, it would only become PINK FLOYD when Dave would play those notes. They were a great team.
BTW: the examples i gave where all from PRE-DARK SIDE-period, so a less-watersinfuenced period.
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Post by quicksilver »

Real Pink in the Inside wrote:
quicksilver wrote:I don't think it really has to be made into a RvD argument. I just really believe that the formula sprung out of a callaboration of the 2 more than anything.
OH, come on. It's ridiculous to give Gilmour as much credit as Waters, and to pretend they were ever a FULL-BLOWN collaboration.
He deserves every bit as much credit. David Gilmour was the best thing that ever happened to Roger Waters. And I don't mean that in a negative way. After Syd left, the band was in turmoil and Roger was now the head man and leader. That's alot of pressure for someone who at the time was not an accomplished musician and had probably as much writing credit that Rick Wright did. One could probably argue that Rick was more important the the band at the time that Roger was. With no real musical direction or any real vision on how to proceed, enter David Gilmour. He could play guitar, he could sing, he was eager to explore his own musical ideas. He could take Rogers ideas to a new level, and he did. Starting with the song ASFOS you could hear Dave's impact right away. (most of the other songs were left over from Piper). From there on, the pink Floyd sound was changed; it was more professional and had direction. Knowing that the music was in good hands, this gave Roger time to develop his song writing skills. I believe Roger became an excellent songwriter, as we all know. But words without music are only poems. Dave had an uncanny ability to take Rogers ideas to a new level. This collaboration is what propelled floyd in the 70's. I also believe that during this time Roger always had the upperhand due to the fact that Dave wasn't there from the beginning and this caused considerable tension between them. You see, Roger needed Dave but he'd only give him enough credit as necessary-never enough that would surpass himself. Once he felt Dave was becomming to important he would excersise his authority as evidenced by The Wall & TFC and Animals to a lesser degree.

Now, before someone claims that I am Roger bashing-I am not. Floyd would not have been what it is without Roger Waters and I'm not understating his contributions in any way. I'm just not willing to give him more credit than he deserves. I think in the end it's the music which we identify with more than the lyrics.
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Post by Feeling Very Pink »

I agree.
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Post by mosespa »

I disagree.

Do you really think that Brick Part Two would have been as huge a success as it had been if the lyrics were "Sorrow?"

You can't really even claim a specific musical Pink Floyd SOUND...because to some people that sound is DSOTM and nothing else, to some people it's Animals/The Wall and nothing else and to some people, it's PIPER and nothing else.

So...which one's Pink? You might say.

In making sure that you don't give Roger more credit than he deserves (and who the hell are we to say who deserves how much credit?!?!?!) you seem to be making sure that Gilmour receives more credit than he deserves.

Notice that I said "seem to be."

If the music is the most important identifying factor in Floyd today, it's only because the lyrics have gotten so dire.
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Post by Real Pink in the Inside »

DSOTM - TFC: All lyrics by Roger Waters.

Most of the lyrics before DSOTM were written by Roger as well.

And finally, to end once and for all this nonsense that David deserves as much credit as Roger:

Pink Floyd songs written solely by Waters:

Let There Be More Light - Waters
Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun - Waters
Corporal Clegg - Waters
Cirrus Minor - Waters
The Nile Song - Waters
Crying Song - Waters
Green Is The Colour - Waters
Cymbaline - Waters
Grantchester Meadows - Waters
Several Species... - Waters
If - Waters
Julia Dream - Waters
Bidding My Time - Waters
San Tropez - Waters
Free Four - Waters
Money - Waters
Brain Damage - Waters
Eclipse - Waters
Welcome To The Machine - Waters
Have A Cigar - Waters
Pigs On The Wing (Part One) - Waters
Pigs (Three Different Ones) - Waters
Sheep - Waters
Pigs On The Wing (Part Two) - Waters
In The Flesh? - Waters
The Thin Ice - Waters
Another Brick In The Wall (Part I) - Waters
The Happiest Days Of Our Lives - Waters
Another Brick In The Wall (Part II) - Waters
Mother - Waters
Goodbye Blue Sky - Waters
Empty Spaces - Waters
One Of My Turns - Waters
Don't Leave Me Now - Waters
Another Brick In The Wall (Part III) - Waters
Goodbye Cruel World - Waters
Hey You - Waters
Is There Anybody Out There? - Waters
Nobody Home - Waters
Vera - Waters
Bring The Boys Back Home - Waters
The Show Must Go On - Waters
In The Flesh - Waters
Waiting For The Worms - Waters
Stop - Waters
Outside The Wall - Waters
The Post War Dream - Waters
Your Possible Pasts - Waters
One Of The Few - Waters
The Hero's Return - Waters
The Gunners Dream - Waters
Paranoid Eyes - Waters
Get Your Filthy Hands Off My Desert - Waters
The Fletcher Memorial Home - Waters
Southhampton Dock - Waters
The Final Cut - Waters
Not Now John - Waters
Two Suns In The Sunset - Waters

Total: 58 songs (Note: 46 songs if you exclude TFC)

----

Pink Floyd songs written solely by Gilmour:

A Spanish Piece - Gilmour
The Narrow Way (Parts I-III) - Gilmour
Fat Old Sun - Gilmour
Childhood's End - Gilmour

Total: 4 songs (6 if you count The Narrow Way as three songs)

----

Pink Floyd songs written solely by Wright:

Remember A Day - Wright
See Saw - Wright
Sysyphus (Parts I-IV) - Wright
Summer 68 - Wright
Paint Box - Wright
The Great Gig In The Sky - Wright

Total: 6 songs (9 if you count Sysyphus as four songs)

----

Pink Floyd songs written by Gilmour and Waters:

A Pillow Of Winds - Gilmour/Waters
Fearless - Gilmour/Waters
Obscured By Clouds - Waters/Gilmour
The Gold It's In The... - Waters/Gilmour
Wots...Uh The Deal? - Waters/Gilmour
On The Run - Gilmour/Waters
Wish You Were Here - Waters/Gilmour
Dogs - Waters/Gilmour
Young Lust - Waters/Gilmour
Comfortably Numb - Gilmour/Waters
Run Like Hell - Gilmour/Waters

Total: 11 songs

----

Pink Floyd songs written by Waters and Wright:

Burning Bridges - Waters/Wright
Stay - Waters/Wright
Us And Them - Waters/Wright

Total: 3 songs

----

Pink Floyd songs written by Gilmour, Waters, and Wright (And Mason in some cases):

A Saucerful Of Secrets - Waters/Wright/Mason/Gilmour
Party Sequence - Waters/Wright/Gilmour/Mason
Main Theme - Waters/Wright/Gilmour/Mason
Ibiza Bar - Waters/Wright/Gilmour/Mason
More Blues - Waters/Wright/Gilmour/Mason
Quicksilver - Waters/Wright/Gilmour/Mason
Dramatic Piece - Waters/Wright/Gilmour
Atom Heart Mother - Mason/Gilmour/Waters/Wright/Geesin
Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast - Waters/Mason/Gilmour/Wright
Careful With That Axe, Eugene - Waters/Wright/Mason/Gilmour
One Of These Days - Waters/Wright/Mason/Gilmour
Seamus - Mason/Gilmour/Waters/Wright
Echoes - Mason/Gilmour/Waters/Wright
When You're In - Mason/Gilmour/Waters/Wright
Absolutely Curtains - Mason/Gilmour/Waters/Wright
Breathe In The Air - Waters/Gilmour/Wright
Time - Mason/Waters/Wright/Gilmour
Breathe (Reprise) - Waters/Wright/Gilmour
Shine On You Crazy Diamond (Parts I-V) - Gilmour/Waters/Wright
Shine On You Crazy Diamond (Parts VI-IX) - Waters/Wright/Gilmour

Total: 20 songs (Note: I treated SOYCD as two songs for simplification)

----

Other:

Jugband Blues - Barrett
Up The Khyber - Mason/Wright
The Grand Vizier's Garden Party (Parts I-III) - Mason
Mudmen - Gilmour/Wright
Speak To Me - Mason
Any Colour You Like - Gilmour/Mason/Wright
The Trial - Waters/Ezrin

Total: 7 songs (9 if you count GVGP as three songs)

----

Number of songs each had a hand in WRITING:

Waters - 93 songs
Gilmour - 37 songs (39 if you consider The Narrow Way as three songs)
Wright - 32 songs (35 if you consider Sysyphus as four songs)

Please point out any hanging chads that will reveal Gilmour really does deserve as much credit as Roger! :lol:
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OH YEAH...

Post by Real Pink in the Inside »

Now, before someone claims that I am David bashing - I am not. Floyd CLEARLY would NOT have been what it was without David Gilmour and I'm not understating his contributions in any way. I have ONLY posted ACTUAL, UNDENIABLE FACTS. I'm not willing to give David Gilmour more credit than he clearly deserves.
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Post by Spinoza »

You, RPITI , falls once again in the credit-issue-trap, by measuring the importance of a bandmember for the group by looking at credits. How much songs that were performed and became great by ELVIS were really written by him ?????

To Mosespa: "Brick in the wall" was mostly made great by Ezrin. Read the Mojo-issue 1999.

For the cassual Fan, the Pink Floyd-sound may be non-existing ( as for me, i'm a casual WHO-fan, and like Tommy and Quadrophenia, in the other albums, i can't find the same Who-sound, but is it therefor less real ??? ), i think for the complete fan, it is there, and exists. My first Floydrecord was The Wall, and i really needed some time to get used to the DSOTM sound, but at a certain point ( owning some more albums and liking them), i could quickly appreciate Floyds music because there seemed to be some caracteristics in it, like Gilmours guitarsound and the way he improvises. Lest we forget Wright. As quicksilver pointed out, Wright's musical contribution ( not seen via credits ) was very great.

Okay, most of Gilmours adds to the group were improvisations at the moment( which don't give many written credits on the albumsleeve ), but are they therefor less important, does one deserve less appreciation, does one be regarded as a less-contribution to the group ? i think not.
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Post by quicksilver »

Just because an artist is credited solely on a song does not mean that they are entirely responsible for the end product. You site "money" as being written solely by Waters. Yes, that's what the album says but Floyd fans can listen to that song and realize the importance of Dave's input. He probably should get some credit on that as well as the others. Who know's what deal was struck if any, and the % of credit due each member. Lennon wrote only 15% of all Beatles songs soleley by himself yet "Lennon-McCartney" appears on all of them. On ABITWP2......Roger could have very easily said "Dave here are some ideas for the lead guitar part, make something of it" and it could have been nothing more than a few notes- So Dave went back to the studio worked on it and comes back the next day with the lead part all done and Roger says sounds good. and low and behold, Dave gets no credit for it. I think that this probably occured on all of the songs to some degree.
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Post by Real Pink in the Inside »

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT A WATERS VS. GILMOUR POST IN MY OPINION. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE WILL PROBABLY LABEL A WATERS VS. GILMOUR POST, DO NOT READ THIS POST. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, DISSENT IS WELCOME ON THIS BOARD. THAT IS ALL YOU WILL FIND IN THIS POST. YOU WILL NOT SEE THE BASHING OF ANY MEMBERS OF PINK FLOYD. :lol:
quicksilver wrote:Just because an artist is credited solely on a song does not mean that they are entirely responsible for the end product.
I never said such a thing. I merely cited who had a hand in writing what songs.
You site "money" as being written solely by Waters. Yes, that's what the album says but Floyd fans can listen to that song and realize the importance of Dave's input.
As I said, I am not understating David's contributions in any way. It is a well-known fact that he produced DSOTM along with the rest of the band. This shows, for example, in his contributions to Money.

Money was written solely by Roger Waters. Go listen to the original demo solely by Roger.
He probably should get some credit on that as well as the others.
Credit is not given where it is not due. There's a reason why GNR were forced to credit their version of "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" simply "Dylan" instead of "Dylan/Slash/Rose," or whatever. There's a reason why the record CEOs were not allowed to state Elvis wrote all of his songs, for example, although that certainly would have been better business for them.
Who know's what deal was struck if any, and the % of credit due each member.
OH, like anyone is going to believe they all agreed to give Roger more credit than he was due. "Gee, I'm David Gilmour and I think I will agree to give Roger Waters credit for my work so I can make less money from royalties in the future!"
Lennon wrote only 15% of all Beatles songs soleley by himself yet "Lennon-McCartney" appears on all of them.
15%?!?!?!? Even Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, widely regarded as the most McCartney-dominated Beatles album, is about 30% John (LITSWD; BFTBOMK; GM, GM; ADITL), about 7% George (WYWY), and about 63% Paul (All the rest and a tiny section of ADITL ["Woke up, got out of bed..."]). I don't know where you dug up this 15% (Mixing up Harrison with Lennon? Even then...), but you're wrong. Go read exactly who wrote what at IAmTheBeatles.com. You will obviously be very surprised.

"The songwriting duo of Lennon/McCartney is the most successful in the history of music. The only other songwriting duo to come close to the success of Lennon/McCartney is Elton John and Bernie Taupin. Although they almost never wrote any of their songs together, which is the usual definition of a songwriting collaboration, John Lennon and Paul McCartney decided before their first song that all songs written by each of them would always be credited to both of them. Generally, what each would do is write a particular song, then present it to each other. In areas where each song needed a word, or some changes, they then would sit together and fine tune the song."

Except for the bolded parts, which are by me, the above is by John T. Marck (Owner of IAmTheBeatles.com)
On ABITWP2......Roger could have very easily said "Dave here are some ideas for the lead guitar part, make something of it" and it could have been nothing more than a few notes- So Dave went back to the studio worked on it and comes back the next day with the lead part all done and Roger says sounds good. and low and behold, Dave gets no credit for it.
David wrote nothing of the song itself. He only elaborated on what Roger wrote. The same could be said for Bob Ezrin. Both are credited for their elaborations via producer credits.
I think that this probably occured on all of the songs to some degree.
Here is a VERY interesting quote:

Brian Humphries in 1975 - "Floyd were the first band that I ever met that did their own mixing. When they explained to me that since they write and play the music, they must know how they want everything to sound all mixed, I agreed with their viewpoint. Eventually though, on Dark Side, they got so fed up with the mixing process that they finally called somebody else in. On 'Wish You Were Here,' I think it will mainly revolve around Dave, Roger, and myself. Nick's contribution is fairly minimal on this one, and Rick will be involved somewhat, I think. In the end, I leave it down to Roger. I think of Roger actually being Pink Floyd, as much as I regard and respect the other three. He's really in control of the studio part of the group. After all, he does write all of the songs." (See Pgs. 206-207 of Pink Floyd: The Press Reports by Vernon Fitch)
Last edited by Real Pink in the Inside on Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by quicksilver »

You can always come to other agreements, as long as everyone is happy. If you look at most of the Beatles songs, you'll see "written by Lennon-McCartney". The truth is that they co-wrote only about five percent of those songs. Lennon wrote about 15% by himself and McCartney wrote all the others by himself. They had agreed, from the start, to put both there names on all of their songs regardless of who wrote them in order to simplify matters and to put the good of the band ahead of everything else. It worked fine for them, they never had any disagreements over this.

[/b]The last sentence of course has changed since Yoko got involved recently

Above is a direct quote from AJ Charron of Guitar Noise 3/21/00
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Post by decampos »

Real Pink in the Inside wrote: Brian Humphries in 1975 - "Floyd were the first band that I ever met that did their own mixing. When they explained to me that since they write and play the music, they must know how they want everything to sound all mixed, I agreed with their viewpoint. Eventually though, on Dark Side, they got so fed up with the mixing process that they finally called somebody else in. On 'Wish You Were Here,' I think it will mainly revolve around Dave, Roger, and myself. Nick's contribution is fairly minimal on this one, and Rick will be involved somewhat, I think. In the end, I leave it down to Roger. I think of Roger actually being Pink Floyd, as much as I regard and respect the other three. He's really in control of the studio part of the group. After all, he does write all of the songs." (See Pgs. 206-207 of Pink Floyd: The Press Reports by Vernon Fitch)
That is such a brilliant and totally believable quote. Someone who was actually there saying 'I think of Roger actually being Pink Floyd...'.
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Post by Real Pink in the Inside »

Who is that bozo and since when was he the definitive source on The Beatles? Go to IAmTheBeatles.com and read EXACTLY WHO WROTE WHAT, WHEN, AND WHAT THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT. You will not find a more comprehensive site on the band. Stating Lennon wrote 15% of the material by himself is quite possibly the biggest load of b******s I've ever heard in my life.

I suppose that bozo thinks Paul McCartney wrote all of John Lennon's solo material too.