Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Talk about Nick Mason, Richard Wright and other Floyd musicians here.
Kerry King
Knife
Knife
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:54 am

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Kerry King »

I'm sure Mason can count to 5. Or 7, or 9. It was probably the feel of the song that threw him. He probably didn't like the song enough to struggle through it.
Wolfpack wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:23 pm
Let's blame Roger Waters again!
Sure, but only because he is guilty.

Hard to believe he felt undermined by Wright and Gilmour when he was taking most of the writing credit. His bitching seems hollow. False. This is a man who 40 years later was still bothered by the fact that he didn't sing Have A Cigar, and that he gave Mason credit for Speak To Me. Roger Waters' great songs are all very, very old. He radiates cold shafts of broken glass.

Wolfpack
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:15 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Wolfpack »

space triangle wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:08 pm
Hey Wolffpack did you read this article? I believe you will like it. :)

Roger Waters Says Pink Floyd Bandmates Thought He Was Tone Deaf

Pink Floyd bassist, songwriter, and visionary Roger Waters says he never really appreciated his musical abilities until he got away from his old band.
In an interview with Marc Maron, Waters described the "toxic" environment that preceded the end of Pink Floyd. He said David Gilmour and Rick Wright, in particular, seemed to be out to quash his musical ambitions wherever possible."I always felt insignificant and somewhat inept," he said. After leaving Pink Floyd, Waters came to realize he has "a fairly sophisticated musical brain."
I think that every Pink Floyd member, already beginning with Syd Barrett, has added to the toxic environment that preceded the end of Pink Floyd with Waters. Not to mention the toxic quarrelling between what became two camps, with Mason growing up to be the only peace dove.
space triangle wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:08 pm
Maron pointed out that Waters had quite a hand in popularizing the concept album, too, but Waters argued that had been done before, especially by bands like The Who.
Here! Waters gets credits, but doesn't accept them. :)
Kerry King wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:45 pm
I'm sure Mason can count to 5. Or 7, or 9. It was probably the feel of the song that threw him. He probably didn't like the song enough to struggle through it.
He could have drummed if only he wanted to? That's an easy way out. :?
Would you dislike 'Remember a Day', 'Mother' and 'Two Suns in the Sunset'?
Kerry King wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:45 pm
Wolfpack wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:23 pm
Let's blame Roger Waters again!
Sure, but only because he is guilty.

Hard to believe he felt undermined by Wright and Gilmour when he was taking most of the writing credit. His bitching seems hollow. False. This is a man who 40 years later was still bothered by the fact that he didn't sing Have A Cigar, and that he gave Mason credit for Speak To Me. Roger Waters' great songs are all very, very old. He radiates cold shafts of broken glass.
Waters deserves much credit for the concept albums 'The Dark Side of the Moon', 'Wish You Were Here', 'Animals', 'The Wall', and 'The Final Cut'.

Even if one would scrap 'The Final Cut' for whatever reasons, that's already four of the most praised Pink Floyd albums!
It's rather sad that Waters has to defend himself for his efforts - or even feels the need.

Kerry King
Knife
Knife
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:54 am

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Kerry King »

Wolfpack wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:30 am
He could have drummed if only he wanted to? That's an easy way out.
Practicing is the easy way out? You've contradicted yourself. If Mason liked the song enough he would have learned it. I'm sure it was hard to give a shit about learning it knowing that Waters was trying to break up the band. It's not like Mason ever played Two Suns live. I'm sure he could have done it if he felt like it. But why bother when he could just let the guy from Toto jump through Roger's hoops? I mean, Waters had David Gilmour at his peak as a soloist and he used a saxophone instead.
Wolfpack wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:30 am
It's rather sad that Waters has to defend himself for his efforts - or even feels the need.
Yeah. It IS sad. He really seems to need to hog the credit and the attention. But the music doesn't lie.

Wolfpack
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:15 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Wolfpack »

Kerry King wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:37 am
Wolfpack wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:30 am
He could have drummed if only he wanted to? That's an easy way out.
Practicing is the easy way out? You've contradicted yourself. If Mason liked the song enough he would have learned it. I'm sure it was hard to give a shit about learning it knowing that Waters was trying to break up the band. It's not like Mason ever played Two Suns live. I'm sure he could have done it if he felt like it.
I'm contradicting nothing. Practising is the hard way, not giving it a try is the easy way out. That's what I said.

You're assuming that Mason didn't like the songs and therefore didn't contribute to them. That's your theory.
I'd say it's not a secret that Mason is a limited drummer. He still can't drum 'Remember a Day', even though it's part of his own setlist in his recent tours.
Kerry King wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:37 am
But why bother when he could just let the guy from Toto jump through Roger's hoops? I mean, Waters had David Gilmour at his peak as a soloist and he used a saxophone instead.
Gilmour at his peak as a soloist on 'The Final Cut'? That's in contradiction with Waters having destroyed Pink Floyd.
'The Final Cut' has some great "Pink Floyd solos" by Gilmour. Why could he be at his peak, while Mason couldn't?
Was Mason so traumatized about evil Waters, that he was the first to openly regret all the anger against Waters?

And yes, why bother waiting for Mason getting out of his race car to contribute drumming to a song - if you can easily get a session drummer?
Apparently, also Gilmour rather has other drummers. As he continued with Wright, without Mason.
Kerry King wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:37 am
Wolfpack wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:30 am
It's rather sad that Waters has to defend himself for his efforts - or even feels the need.
Yeah. It IS sad. He really seems to need to hog the credit and the attention. But the music doesn't lie.
The music doesn't lie, mostly composed by Waters.

'Money'? His demo doesn't lie.
Neither do his 'The Wall' demos. Gilmour's demo (a rejected idea for a solo album) didn't get further than humming a tune over a guitar, to which Waters added the now famous words.

Maybe I finally know what all the frustration really is about...
Pink Floyd conceptually was a spent force after 'The Final Cut'. The well ran dry at that point.
Since then, both camps (Waters and Gilmour's Floyd) began noticeably repeating themselves!

What if The Beatles would have stayed together?
I think that's the same kind of discussion. The well ran dry and they got bored with each other.

User avatar
Annoying Twit
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:26 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Annoying Twit »

space triangle wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:09 pm
Around 4.51-4.52 nin. at that footage one can well see that it is Willie Wilson pkying drums. I can't see Nick anywhere.
In this lengthy thread on the Steve Hoffman forums includes eyewitness accounts of Nick playing most of the drums on Mother during live concerts, and the second drummer mostly playing additional accents. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ ... er.864086/

E.g.
Mason was basically the lead drummer on this as he was for most of the show. Wilson played extra accents, embellishments and percussion, and they doubled on the ‘fascist’ stuff, What Shall We So Now, and a few other bits. At no point was Wilson playing stuff to cover up for Mason.
It's claimed that Nick can be seen playing most of the Mother drums here (Mother starts about 21:50.) But, the video is not Clea.


Wolfpack
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:15 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Wolfpack »

Annoying Twit wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:02 am
Mason was basically the lead drummer on this as he was for most of the show. Wilson played extra accents, embellishments and percussion, and they doubled on the ‘fascist’ stuff, What Shall We So Now, and a few other bits. At no point was Wilson playing stuff to cover up for Mason.
Still, Mason learnt the drumming by copying the example made on the studio recording.
And I wish he'd done the same effort for 'Remember a Day', in his recent tours.

To get back to the question if Gilmour stopped Mason's further development in Pink Floyd:
I think that Mason quit his development all by himself. Waters, Gilmour and (revived) Wright having no other choice than to continue making music without him.
Gilmour developed himself by just leaving Mason behind, after 'The Division Bell' (1994). Rather using the name of Pink Floyd to promote his solo work, with other drummers. ("The voice and guitar of Pink Floyd")
Gilmour and Wright became the new Pink Floyd, without officially calling themselves Pink Floyd. No room for Mason.

Mason apparently had no other choice than doing a solo tour, with tour members replacing Barrett, Waters, Wright and Gilmour.
Mason, the one who got left behind. I'd say because he rather was a race car driver than an ambitious member of Pink Floyd. His own fault!

User avatar
space triangle
Knife
Knife
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

Wolfpack wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:33 pm
And how Waters is responsible for Mason still unable to drum 'Remember a Day', during his recent tours.
Wolfpack wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:36 pm
And what about 'Remember a Day', which he still can't nail?
Wolfpack wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:34 am
And I wish he'd done the same effort for 'Remember a Day', in his recent tours.
I don't see a problem. He plays 'Remember a Day' just fine. :)


Wolfpack
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:15 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Wolfpack »

space triangle wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:08 am
I don't see a problem. [Mason] plays 'Remember a Day' just fine. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd0vSatX_QA
Thank you for finding an example. "March 15, 2019".
I must humbly admit, this performance sounds better to me than what I found so far!

David Gilmour - Remember a Day (Later... with Jools Holland 26.09.2008)
https://ok.ru/video/41361410775

Gilmour chose another drummer to honour Rick Wright, in 2008.
Was he wrong to leave out Mason? The only other official Pink Floyd member?

User avatar
space triangle
Knife
Knife
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

Annoying Twit wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:02 am
In this lengthy thread on the Steve Hoffman forums includes eyewitness accounts of Nick playing most of the drums on Mother during live concerts, and the second drummer mostly playing additional accents. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ ... er.864086/
That is certainly true. But, in this particular 'Mother' footage it seems to me that it's Willie Wilson who is the lead drummer. He is in the focus. And, it seems he is playing the complete drum kit here. Not just the percussions and other extra accents. But then, everything is too dark and uncertain when it comes to this footage.

User avatar
Annoying Twit
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:26 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Annoying Twit »

space triangle wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:14 am
That is certainly true. But, in this particular 'Mother' footage it seems to me that it's Willie Wilson who is the lead drummer. He is in the focus. And, it seems he is playing the complete drum kit here. Not just the percussions and other extra accents. But then, everything is too dark and uncertain when it comes to this footage.
I did think it a bit odd, but the poster who posted it claims that the video is clear. The evidence from the person who attended the show (and I think someone else chipped in) is better evidence. I think.

User avatar
space triangle
Knife
Knife
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

Annoying Twit wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:08 pm
I did think it a bit odd, but the poster who posted it claims that the video is clear. The evidence from the person who attended the show (and I think someone else chipped in) is better evidence. I think.
I remember I was reading an interview with Mason a few years ago. And he talked about how he was missing a few of the 'The Wall 80-81' shows. He said he had a fairly severe cold for about fifteen days. If I remember correctly, he also said that was the only time he missed the Pink Floyd shows.

Who knows, maybe this 'Mother' footage was taken from one of these shows when he was replaced by Willie Wilson as the lead drummer. :)

Kerry King
Knife
Knife
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:54 am

Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Kerry King »

The music doesnt lie because it cant lie. The credits can lie. One listen to solo waters tells me that the writing credits dont honestly reflect the creative process of a pink floyd album. Waters songs are mostly lifeless and unengaging without the embellishment of a great artist like gilmour. Mason is much more pink floyd then any studio musician could ever be even at his worst Not to mention waters cant play bass on some of his own songs any better than mason could play drums

Wolfpack
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:15 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Wolfpack »

Kerry King wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:43 pm
The credits can lie.
The only official case is 'The Great Gig in the Sky'.
Wrongly credited to Wright alone, instead of Wright and Clare Torry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gig_in_the_Sky
Kerry King wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:43 pm
One listen to solo waters tells me that the writing credits dont honestly reflect the creative process of a pink floyd album.
Of course, solo Waters doesn't reflect the creative process of a Pink Floyd album. It's solo Waters!
Kerry King wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:43 pm
Waters songs are mostly lifeless and unengaging without the embellishment of a great artist like gilmour.
And Gilmour music mostly is lifeless and unengaging without the embellishment of a songwriter like Waters.

However, that was all up to 'The Final Cut'. Since then, I miss the exploration of new directions.
Waters and Gilmour, each in their own camp, mostly made more of the same.
Kerry King wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:43 pm
Mason is much more pink floyd then any studio musician could ever be even at his worst Not to mention waters cant play bass on some of his own songs any better than mason could play drums
Then why did Gilmour and Wright continue without Mason?

Kerry King
Knife
Knife
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:54 am

Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Kerry King »

I don't like people who hog credit in a team situation. Particularly when they go off and do mediocre work without the team.

David Gilmour is a musician. World class. He was Roger Waters' muse.

User avatar
space triangle
Knife
Knife
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

Wolfpack wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:50 pm
Then why did Gilmour and Wright continue without Mason?
Gilmour has taken Rick Wright with him for his 'On An Island' SOLO tour. 'Live in Gdansk' you must have listened to it. He took Rick because of he needed him to sing some lead and backing vocals. Then what would happen if he took Mason too? It would be Pink Floyd REUNION! Gilmour, Mason, and Wright are the Pink Floyd. Roger as we know it left the band some 25 years ago. But since David has repeatedly stated in the past that he did not want the renunion of Pink Floyd, then he could not take Mason with him and Wright!