Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Talk about Nick Mason, Richard Wright and other Floyd musicians here.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by twcc »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:59 am ...
Just for fun, look up the video of Dave playing bass with Spinal Tap on "Big Bottom".
I did ... :-;

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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:59 amWaters has said that he has never been interested in playing any instrument.
Maybe. But, he was allways interested to smash the gong! :D

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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scarecrow wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:41 am I just have the impression Waters caught the 'songwriting bug'... On one hand I can see what Waters is getting at in various interviews where he talks about having discovered he could write, and that none of the others were writers. Well, I think Nick Mason gets a free pass by playing a mostly non-melodic instrument... but I do find it a bit strange that Gilmour and Wright didn't seem to make much of an effort in terms of bringing musical ideas to the table during that period. I'd think from their perspective, perhaps, Waters had brought such a strong bunch of songs to the table in 1978 that they were happy to make that one album slightly less collaboratively and then perhaps jam things out for the next album.
Let's not forget that both Gilmour and Wright had poured their output into their respective solo albums while Waters came up with 4 (!!) LPs worth of material. Waters even had to be convinced to do something with "Comfortably Numb", one of two ideas that didn't make it onto Gilmour's solo debut...

The downside of all this is that being prolific does not equal being consistently good in your writing. Both Gilmour and Bob Ezrin had their concerns with some part of the original Wall concept. Waters agreed to cut those songs, then they resurfaced again on The Final Cut :-;

Even when they did jam things together, it would often not get credited as such. The long instrumental passages in "Dogs" and "Sheep" are examples, as is the second half of "...Brick... (2)".

But in general I think your "songwriting bug" description fits perfectly. And it's a pity, because beforehand you'd get a much more diverse range of styles, when e.g. Waters wrote lyrics/melody for the instrumental piece known as "Violent Sequence", which became "Us and Them".
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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DarkSideFreak wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:52 pmWaters agreed to cut those songs, then they resurfaced again on The Final Cut :-;
A practice which was perfectly okay when 'Dogs' ('You Gotta Be Crazy') and 'Sheep' ('Raving and Drooling') resurfaced on the fan favorite album 'Animals'.
Please, stop Gilmour's myth about 'The Final Cut' being just 'The Wall' outtakes. Or was he talking about the unfinished album 'Spare Bricks', which would basically have been a movie soundtrack version of 'The Wall'? (There would have been lots of recycling there!)

Only a few 'The Wall' outtakes were used on 'The Final Cut'. All reworked, like happened to 'Dogs' and 'Sheep'.

And what is your source for Waters being unwilling to use Gilmour's instrumental outtake which became 'Comfortably Numb'?

'Us and Them'... Wasn't that Wright's instrumental outtake from 'Zabriskie Point'?

Waters giving some outtakes a second chance!
How dare he! Let's ask our money back! :roll:
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Wolfpack wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:30 pm Please, stop Gilmour's myth about 'The Final Cut' being just 'The Wall' outtakes. Or was he talking about the unfinished album 'Spare Bricks', which would basically have been a movie soundtrack version of 'The Wall'? (There would have been lots of recycling there!)

Only a few 'The Wall' outtakes were used on 'The Final Cut'. All reworked, like happened to 'Dogs' and 'Sheep'.

And what is your source for Waters being unwilling to use Gilmour's instrumental outtake which became 'Comfortably Numb'?

'Us and Them'... Wasn't that Wright's instrumental outtake from 'Zabriskie Point'?

Waters giving some outtakes a second chance!
How dare he! Let's ask our money back! :roll:
You evidently misunderstood my point.

Dogs and Sheep, as far as I know, were never seen as poor by the band. Roger co-wrote them, but thought that they weren't complete enough and didn't fit the idea of a concept album with Shine On as the focal point. David was up for using them seeing how well they worked live, but Rick and Nick sided with Roger.

They were put back until the next album because they didn't fit, not because of quality concerns.

The Violent Sequence was liked by everyone, including Michelangelo Antonioni, but it wasn't what he wanted for the film. Again, the band knew the piece had potential.

With The Wall, it was obvious that 3 LPs were too much. So, sifting through the demos meant that, yes, Roger, David and Bob did cut songs they felt were not good enough for the album.

Using those as the basic fabric of the next studio album does feel a bit desperate. Evidently, it was more important to Roger to get the anti-Thatcher lyrics out quickly while they were still relevant, as opposed to working up something entirely new and accepting David as a co-writer.

I know it has been very typical of PF to recycle ideas (almost every album has some call-back to earlier tracks), but The Final Cut is one case where it's actually felt (The Endless River is the other one, but that's for obvious reasons).

Spare Bricks was what eventually became The Final Cut - built around songs that were cut from The Wall. Evidently "When the Tigers Broke Free" was earmarked for this but, surprisingly, not used on the original LP.

As for CN...

"Accounts differ — this is Pink Floyd we’re talking about — as to how keen Waters was to incorporate “Comfortably Numb” into The Wall. Waters, irked by his colleagues’ claims that he shut them out of the creative process, said recently that “I was desperate for [the other band members] to write, always, always, always.” Bob Ezrin, co-producer of The Wall, remembers, “At first Roger had not planned to include any of Dave’s material […] I fought for this song and insisted that Roger work on it.“"

https://popdose.com/the-life-and-times- ... ably-numb/
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 pm[Dogs and Sheep] They were put back until the next album because they didn't fit, not because of quality concerns.
I remember reading, Gilmour disliked 'You Gotta Be Crazy' ('Dogs') for having too much words.
DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 pmThe Violent Sequence was liked by everyone, including Michelangelo Antonioni, but it wasn't what he wanted for the film. Again, the band knew the piece had potential.
In the early 1970s, Pink Floyd was more ambitious as a group.
After 'The Dark Side of the Moon' (1973), Waters acted like a "bossy" Paul McCartney who tried to keep The Beatles a group in the late 1960s. Eventually having them endlessly rehearse his 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer'...
DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 pmWith The Wall, it was obvious that 3 LPs were too much. So, sifting through the demos meant that, yes, Roger, David and Bob did cut songs they felt were not good enough for the album.

Using those as the basic fabric of the next studio album does feel a bit desperate. Evidently, it was more important to Roger to get the anti-Thatcher lyrics out quickly while they were still relevant, as opposed to working up something entirely new and accepting David as a co-writer.
Elsewhere on internet, I found a different story - which I've heard before. Waters would have been sued if he didn't write another Pink Floyd album, after 'The Final Cut' (1983). Being a reason for him to leave Pink Floyd.
YouTube, 1 day ago, Chr1551 wrote:Gilmour, Mason & the record company threatened to sue Waters for failure to deliver product when he wanted to continue working on his solo career instead of returning to write another Pink Floyd record right away. This forced him to officially resign to avoid a lawsuit. What people who push the "it was Roger's fault" narrative always leave out is that they were the one's who threatened to sue Waters first! Waters expected that by leaving the name would fall into dis-use without a song writer, which was a big miscalculation which I'm sure he hugely regretted afterword. He didn't expect Gilmour & Mason to go to the lengths they did: hiring a new band to help them write and record a new album to release and tour with under the PF name & Gilmour of course needed to get help to write the lyrics as well. It's popular to put all the blame on Waters but think of it like this: if Gilmour's greed and ego hadn't driven him to release his solo Gilmour & friends albums under the Pink Floyd name, which no surprise burned bridges with Waters, we likely would have gotten a full reunion for new albums & tours eventually. Why couldn't he just let the name rest and be content with a solo career until everyone was ready to reunite?
source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa6Cwuo9b3s (comment section)
DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 pmI know it has been very typical of PF to recycle ideas (almost every album has some call-back to earlier tracks), but The Final Cut is one case where it's actually felt (The Endless River is the other one, but that's for obvious reasons).

Spare Bricks was what eventually became The Final Cut - built around songs that were cut from The Wall. Evidently "When the Tigers Broke Free" was earmarked for this but, surprisingly, not used on the original LP.
I've always liked 'The Final Cut', since my teens. I didn't know which member did what.
Just like 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn' (1967) and 'The Wall' (1979), the album always sounds like Pink Floyd to me.

It seems to me that 'The Final Cut' mostly suffers from Gilmour criticism towards the album, while promoting his album 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason' (1987).
Wright or Waters... If Wright is an essential member to have a true Pink Floyd album, then why isn't Waters essential?
DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 pmAs for CN...

"Accounts differ — this is Pink Floyd we’re talking about — as to how keen Waters was to incorporate “Comfortably Numb” into The Wall. Waters, irked by his colleagues’ claims that he shut them out of the creative process, said recently that “I was desperate for [the other band members] to write, always, always, always.” Bob Ezrin, co-producer of The Wall, remembers, “At first Roger had not planned to include any of Dave’s material […] I fought for this song and insisted that Roger work on it.“"

https://popdose.com/the-life-and-times- ... ably-numb/
So, if WATERS complains about having to recycle an unfinished outtake for Gilmour's first solo album, he commits a crime?
But if Gilmour has to recycle an unfinished outtake by Waters, then... Waters also commits a crime?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That's how unworkable Pink Floyd became for Waters. In that light, I can understand why he wanted to leave and have a solo career without using the name Pink Floyd.
Last edited by Wolfpack on Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:28 pm With The Wall, it was obvious that 3 LPs were too much. So, sifting through the demos meant that, yes, Roger, David and Bob did cut songs they felt were not good enough for the album.

Using those as the basic fabric of the next studio album does feel a bit desperate. Evidently, it was more important to Roger to get the anti-Thatcher lyrics out quickly while they were still relevant, as opposed to working up something entirely new and accepting David as a co-writer.

I know it has been very typical of PF to recycle ideas (almost every album has some call-back to earlier tracks), but The Final Cut is one case where it's actually felt (The Endless River is the other one, but that's for obvious reasons).

Spare Bricks was what eventually became The Final Cut - built around songs that were cut from The Wall. Evidently "When the Tigers Broke Free" was earmarked for this but, surprisingly, not used on the original LP.
Roger always intended The Wall to be an album, a stage show, and a movie, in that order, and each with the same track listing - but he didn't anticipate how much of it wouldn't make it onto the album in the first place. Ezrin was against the idea of making it into a movie, because he wanted people to use their own imagination when listening to the story. When they made the album, they dropped several songs about the teacher, simply to make the storyline "more linear" - the band was still okay with the idea of a triple album, but the record company wouldn't go along with it, and Ezrin couldn't find a way to fit that in and still make it "snappy" (concise and to the point). None of those songs were about Margaret Thatcher or the Falkland Islands. Dave and Rick also disliked the "Vera"/"Bring the Boys Back Home"/"Is There Anybody Out There" portion, but it could work within Ezrin's "script" - though it required badgering Roger into coming up with something to complete that scene, which is why "Nobody Home" was written near the very end of the sessions. Ezrin was never involved with the film project, so Roger continued to tweak the story by working in "When the Tigers Broke Free", which was never recorded for the album in the first place. Spare Bricks was an attempt to make their follow-up a companion album to The Wall, using the new and re-recorded tracks from the film to incorporate the more personal material that Roger felt the double-album lacked.

In 1974, they made "Shine On" the focal point of their new album, and wrote new material in the studio to complete that concept. In '76 they did the same exact thing with the other material they'd been working on. "Dogs" and "Sheep" were never outtakes because they were never intended to be on the earlier album, it was just what Gilmour would have preferred to work on at the time. "Dogs was 80% mine" - and just to tie in with the other thread regarding Pink Floyd's heavy folk influences, he was writing the guitar parts for "Dogs" and "Sheep" back in 1971 while listening to a lot of Joni Mitchell, and trying to wrap his head around alternate tunings and the fat, jazzy chord voicings that Rick was often applying to their works-in-progress (both parts were briefly played during the final performance of "Embryo" in 1971). Those were things that Dave had been developing for a long time, and he wanted to finish them. Roger may have provided the best possible framing for these pieces, but there was a lot that went into them that was over his head.

It's hard to believe that they would ever have issued actual outtakes, since they certainly put a lot of emphasis on having an original concept for each album at that time - I actually think it's why Roger has released so few albums as a solo artist. Roger felt he was "on a roll" with his songwriting, and he took the teacher song-cycle and reframed it within the context of current military conflicts. They're still the same songs, with the same characters and stories, just like "Dogs" is still very much "You Gotta Be Crazy" (though, like many of Roger's ideas, removing 50% only served to improve it, and Dave said the original lyrics were "physically uncomfortable" to sing). He already knew he didn't want to work with the others anymore, but releasing The Final Cut under his own name would have put him in breach of contract and make him liable for Dave and Nick's lost wages - the same threat they employed to get him to bugger off three years later: "If I hadn't, the financial repercussions would have wiped me out completely."
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:05 am None of those songs were about Margaret Thatcher or the Falkland Islands. Dave and Rick also disliked the "Vera"/"Bring the Boys Back Home"/"Is There Anybody Out There" portion, but it could work within Ezrin's "script"
Sure. But Roger was OK with using those purged songs to fit the new narrative, instead of having to work on a new set of songs which might've delayed the release of TFC. (And apparently, David did suggest at least one idea that later saw the light of day as "Yet Another Movie".)
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Wolfpack wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:15 pm used on the original LP.

I've always liked 'The Final Cut', since my teens. I didn't know which member did what.
You must have noticed what had happened. Waters turning his back on pink floyd. Marginalizing them as his back up band. No Gilmour vocals until the penultimate track. Sax where a Gilmour guitar solo would have been perfect. A lack of excitement in some of the production. Wright and Gilmour relied on Waters because Waters appointed himself lyricist. It's not as if Rick Wright or David Gilmour couldn't come up with a chord progression. They can play 3 or 4 chords as easily as Waters. Waters was shutting them out.
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Kerry King wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:35 amMarginalizing them as his back up band.
'The Bleeding Heart Band' :D

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Ummm, no, I don't think so. If anything, Mason had the double whammy of losing interest compared to his love of cars, and feeling pressured/bullied by Waters.
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Kerry King wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:35 am
Wolfpack wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:15 pm used on the original LP.

I've always liked 'The Final Cut', since my teens. I didn't know which member did what.
You must have noticed what had happened.
Before 1987, Pink Floyd was still a mysterious group with rather unknown members. Roger Waters, David Gilmour... who?
Gilmour needed the name Pink Floyd, because his solo career wasn't successful. And Waters felt overshadowed by everyone knowing Pink Floyd and not Roger Waters.
Pink Floyd wanted to be mysterious. Which became a problem when members tried to have a solo career.

I like 'The Wall', I like 'The Final Cut'!
Should I dislike them now, because I've discovered that Wright (who?) isn't on 'The Final Cut' and maybe only on a few tracks of 'The Wall'?
Kerry King wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:35 amWaters turning his back on pink floyd. Marginalizing them as his back up band. No Gilmour vocals until the penultimate track. Sax where a Gilmour guitar solo would have been perfect. A lack of excitement in some of the production. Wright and Gilmour relied on Waters because Waters appointed himself lyricist. It's not as if Rick Wright or David Gilmour couldn't come up with a chord progression. They can play 3 or 4 chords as easily as Waters. Waters was shutting them out.
Waters wanted to have a solo career, but would have been sued if he didn't deliver yet another Pink Floyd album.
'The Final Cut' had to be a Pink Floyd album, because Waters was forced to make one (and then another one). And now, Waters is the bully?
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Wolfpack wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:44 pmGilmour needed the name Pink Floyd, because his solo career wasn't successful. And Waters felt overshadowed by everyone knowing Pink Floyd and not Roger Waters.
To be fair, the About Face tour did much better than the Pros and Cons tour. Gilmour did have to cancel two shows in Quebec due to low ticket sales, but he added a number of other dates in Florida and elsewhere on the East coast. He only played two, sometimes three Pink Floyd songs ("Run Like Hell", "Comfortably Numb", "Money"): Roger played over a dozen Pink Floyd songs, had Eric Clapton with him, and managed to lose $1.6 million dollars. Roger didn't do as poorly on the second leg of the tour - by which time Clapton and two others had quit - and it was held in much smaller venues, while Gilmour's had always been a fairly low-key show with minimal visual effects. Roger had the benefit of his album and tour announcement appearing months after Dave's, giving him more word-of-mouth advertising whether he wanted it or not. Even the album reviews were tough, but the most famous one stated that About Face "assumes new luster in comparison to this turkey."

Gilmour made it clear in interviews for his first and second solo albums that his focus was still going to be Pink Floyd, and even said that the main reason for touring was to get the experience of running the show, since they knew Roger wasn't coming back and they were just waiting for him to "f--- off into the ether." Roger always saw it as a competition, but he could barely compete with "David Gilmour" let alone "Pink Floyd", while many fans would be happy to accept it for what it was - a divorce that gets you two birthdays and two Christmases.
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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space triangle wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:19 pm
Kerry King wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:35 amMarginalizing them as his back up band.
'The Bleeding Heart Band' :D

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