Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

All discussion related specifically to Roger Waters.
ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Just for laughs, here's the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's review of Pink Floyd's show at the Civic Arena on June 19, 1973:

Pink Floyd last night at the Civic Arena came up with some sounds that haven't been heard outside a sound-stage at a horror-film studio. The four-man British rock group played an interesting though uninspired set, which showed only spasmodic flashes of brilliance. They seemed more interested in sound effects than music, and as they performed they seemed very tired. Yet the experimental rock sound they put out was intriguing and very clean. One big factor that helped the group was their fantastic sound system - one of the best in the world. The concert got off about two hours late because of an airline problem, but the near-capacity crowd was quite patient, though restless. Incidentally, the group opened its concert almost exactly as Deep Purple did there recently - with smoke rising around the members of the group as the house light went down. This type of "puff"-ery is becoming trite.
battra
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by battra »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:08 am
battra wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:29 pm Because, that's my point.
Unless you're claiming that Roger Waters invented any one of those elements, or was even the first to bring them all together, then none of this is relevant. Even Roger wasn't claiming that, as his comments clearly point to their 1974 and later tours as the start of the "spectacle", in which case, I'll direct you back to my post about Bowie's elaborate tour that same year.
Conversations have a way of twisting around.

When my previous post happened, I wasn't responding directly to Roger.
penguinzzz
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by penguinzzz »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:08 am
Even Roger wasn't claiming that, as his comments clearly point to their 1974 and later tours as the start of the "spectacle", in which case, I'll direct you back to my post about Bowie's elaborate tour that same year.
No, he mentions the plane crash which began in 1973 as mentioned upthread. You're sticking to your contention that no PF show pre-74 featured any 'spectacle', which is demonstrably untrue.

As you keep bringing Bowie up I would have thought you would have found his Earl's Court 73 debacle at least interesting in this context.
ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:08 am Even Roger wasn't claiming that, as his comments clearly point to their 1974 and later tours as the start of the "spectacle", in which case, I'll direct you back to my post about Bowie's elaborate tour that same year.
penguinzzz wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:00 pm No, he mentions the plane crash which began in 1973 as mentioned upthread. You're sticking to your contention that no PF show pre-74 featured any 'spectacle', which is demonstrably untrue.
In the interview, Roger never brings up the '73 tour:

"You have to forget about The Wall. Because you can’t do bigger or more complex. The spectacle is an interesting thing, because I can say I invented it. The Wish You Were Here tour had some of that, and the Animals tour in 1977. And then there was The Wall. After that, everybody did spectacle."
penguinzzz wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:00 pm As you keep bringing Bowie up I would have thought you would have found his Earl's Court 73 debacle at least interesting in this context.
It's not particularly relevant here. From davidbowie.com:

"This was the first rock concert to be staged at the venue and unfortunately it didn't seem the logistics of putting on a show there had been fully worked out.

Reviews pointed out the poor visibility (the stage was on ground level), and an inadequate sound system unable to fill the cavernous hall.

However, those that could see and hear enjoyed a superb setlist by Bowie and The Spiders, augmented by the expanded band.

The new outfits given to David by Kansai Yamamoto, along with the kabuki influenced make up and the state of the art light show, made for an incredible spectacle.

Things settled down at smaller venues for the rest of the tour, as witnessed in the Ziggy Stardust Motion Picture filmed at the last show of the tour at Hammersmith Odeon on July 3rd.
"

If you watch that film, you'll see that Bowie's '73 tour was already achieving the "spectacle" with fairly simple lighting and minimal special effects. It's not likely that he decided to build a mechanical city after seeing Roger's model airplane.

Two other things worth noting:

When Syd Barrett left there was no Pink Floyd for me anymore." - David Bowie

Musical Director for the Diamond Dogs tour: Michael Kamen
ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

penguinzzz wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:00 pm As you keep bringing Bowie up I would have thought you would have found his Earl's Court 73 debacle at least interesting in this context.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am It's not particularly relevant here.
I've read a little further on Earls Court, and yes, Bowie's was the first concert there - and a week later, Pink Floyd's was the second, because they cancelled all other events in between (including another Bowie date) to build the stage and revamp the sound system. Had the Floyd been the first band to perform there, they would also have had people dancing naked, pissing in the aisles, and rushing the ground-level stage.

Side note: Gilmour made a guest appearance with Bombay Bicycle Club for the last concert held at Earls Court before it was demolished.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by penguinzzz »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:08 am Even Roger wasn't claiming that, as his comments clearly point to their 1974 and later tours as the start of the "spectacle", in which case, I'll direct you back to my post about Bowie's elaborate tour that same year.
penguinzzz wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:00 pm No, he mentions the plane crash which began in 1973 as mentioned upthread. You're sticking to your contention that no PF show pre-74 featured any 'spectacle', which is demonstrably untrue.
In the interview, Roger never brings up the '73 tour:

"You have to forget about The Wall. Because you can’t do bigger or more complex. The spectacle is an interesting thing, because I can say I invented it. The Wish You Were Here tour had some of that, and the Animals tour in 1977. And then there was The Wall. After that, everybody did spectacle."
penguinzzz wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:00 pm As you keep bringing Bowie up I would have thought you would have found his Earl's Court 73 debacle at least interesting in this context.
It's not particularly relevant here. From davidbowie.com:

"This was the first rock concert to be staged at the venue and unfortunately it didn't seem the logistics of putting on a show there had been fully worked out.

Reviews pointed out the poor visibility (the stage was on ground level), and an inadequate sound system unable to fill the cavernous hall.

However, those that could see and hear enjoyed a superb setlist by Bowie and The Spiders, augmented by the expanded band.

The new outfits given to David by Kansai Yamamoto, along with the kabuki influenced make up and the state of the art light show, made for an incredible spectacle.

Things settled down at smaller venues for the rest of the tour, as witnessed in the Ziggy Stardust Motion Picture filmed at the last show of the tour at Hammersmith Odeon on July 3rd.
"

If you watch that film, you'll see that Bowie's '73 tour was already achieving the "spectacle" with fairly simple lighting and minimal special effects. It's not likely that he decided to build a mechanical city after seeing Roger's model airplane.

Two other things worth noting:

When Syd Barrett left there was no Pink Floyd for me anymore." - David Bowie

Musical Director for the Diamond Dogs tour: Michael Kamen
You’re putting way too much trust in Waters’ ability to remember the PF timeline. The release & success of DSOTM coincided with their playing bigger venues and stepping up the stage show - it’s really that simple. The later tours were bigger. There was no ‘Wish You Were Here’ tour.

I’m even more surprised you’re quoting some hagiographic blog on the Bowie site. The contemporary view was that the Earls Court show was a disaster. It’s not even debatable. Then again if you’re you’re getting excited about Bowie in a Kansai Yamamoto outfit, I suppose it makes sense you’re so defensive about any suggestion the Diamond Dogs tour might not actually have been Year Zero for rock ‘spectacle’. Again, the facts are simple: Bowie toured with an ambitious and frequently malfunctioning theatrical stage set which broke new ground, received mixed reviews and was abandoned earlier than expected.

In the end, as with many of your posts, this really seems to be largely about your - let’s face it rather odd - preoccupation with Waters and the apparent need to warn us all of his failings and fraudulence. It’s entertaining stuff for the most part but, once again, it’s a good idea to keep to the facts if possible.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:40 am There was no ‘Wish You Were Here’ tour.
April through July of 1975.
penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:40 am I suppose it makes sense you’re so defensive about any suggestion the Diamond Dogs tour might not actually have been Year Zero for rock ‘spectacle’.
Which I am not - I simply provided one example of an artist that was already working on that scale before Pink Floyd. The Earls Court gig was a disaster, though due to the success of all of the other shows on that tour, it was the venue's new owners who were at fault. Bowie did cut the Diamond Dogs tour short, changed directions, and proceeded with the stripped-down "Philly Soul Tour", after 34 shows with the elaborate set; The Wall was only performed 31 times on the 1980-81 tour, also experienced technical issues (Gilmour has a scar above his eye from being hit with one of the brick props), hemorrhaged money, and also received mixed reviews:

"Live, The Wall seems to me even more grossly self-indulgent, pompous and up its own ass than it does on record, the much-vaunted special effects more properly belong in some end-of-the-pier entertainment, and the whole thing is about as much fun as having a hole bored into your head, a cosmic trepanning you wouldn’t want to have to endure a second time."

From another review:
"More serious, though, is the actual worth and depth of The Wall, apart from the spectacle. The various metaphorical uses to which the idea of a "wall" is put seem reasonable enough. But the whole doesn't really cohere in any sort of inexorable, continuing way, partly because the music lacks the dreamy repetition of the best of Pink Floyd. And the final scene, with the band as a sort of neo-hippie bunch of folksingers celebrating old-fashioned virtues amid the smouldering rubble, seems not only banal but also self-denying, given this band's past accomplishments."

And another review:
"The Wall has its muddied moments, it doesn't flow along that coherently in more basic dramatic terms, and it suffers from an ending (after the wall's destruction) that seems all too pat: if one wants a rebirth of childlike innocence after the apocalypse, Robert Wilson and Philip Glass did it far, far better in Einstein on the Beach ... If Mr. Waters and the rest of the band feel like it, perhaps they can reach down within themselves and come up with something of an artistic merit to match their imagination and technical skills in the area of special effects."

(^ I chuckled hard at the Einstein on the Beach reference, since the first show I attended was Roger Waters, and the second was Philip Glass.)
ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:40 amIn the end, as with many of your posts, this really seems to be largely about your - let’s face it rather odd - preoccupation with Waters and the apparent need to warn us all of his failings and fraudulence. It’s entertaining stuff for the most part but, once again, it’s a good idea to keep to the facts if possible.
I'm happy to keep you entertained. Did you know that all but one of your posts on this forum were responses to one of mine? Some might say that's rather odd.

I would naturally expect a Pink Floyd forum to be full of knowledgeable, diehard fans, but I enjoy learning about and sharing the bits that aren't part of the glossy, abridged history.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by penguinzzz »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:09 pm
penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:40 am There was no ‘Wish You Were Here’ tour.
April through July of 1975.
I'm aware of the tour having listened to shows from it for over 40 years. But it was never called that because the LP didn't exist yet. A typical example of Waters' confusion about the band's history / timeline.

As for the 'Wall' show reviews, not sure exactly why they're relevant here but I suppose it was post-'73 that PF started to get regular bad live reviews, usually accusations of complacency. I well remember the Wall shows getting panned in the music papers at the time.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by penguinzzz »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 1:26 pm
penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:40 amIn the end, as with many of your posts, this really seems to be largely about your - let’s face it rather odd - preoccupation with Waters and the apparent need to warn us all of his failings and fraudulence. It’s entertaining stuff for the most part but, once again, it’s a good idea to keep to the facts if possible.
I'm happy to keep you entertained. Did you know that all but one of your posts on this forum were responses to one of mine? Some might say that's rather odd.

I would naturally expect a Pink Floyd forum to be full of knowledgeable, diehard fans, but I enjoy learning about and sharing the bits that aren't part of the glossy, abridged history.
Actually it was two posts. And my first post in this thread was only making a minor qualification to your thoughtful, 'sharing' statement : 'he's a wanker'.

It all sounds so reasonable - all that fluffy 'I enjoy learning' stuff - but honestly your Waters fixation makes it hard to square that up with what you actually post.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by penguinzzz »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:55 pm
penguinzzz wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:00 pm As you keep bringing Bowie up I would have thought you would have found his Earl's Court 73 debacle at least interesting in this context.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am It's not particularly relevant here.
I've read a little further on Earls Court, and yes, Bowie's was the first concert there - and a week later, Pink Floyd's was the second, because they cancelled all other events in between (including another Bowie date) to build the stage and revamp the sound system. Had the Floyd been the first band to perform there, they would also have had people dancing naked, pissing in the aisles, and rushing the ground-level stage.

OK I'm going to move along soon.... but honestly I can't decide if you're serious here or not? Either way it's a hilarious image.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:40 pmAs for the 'Wall' show reviews, not sure exactly why they're relevant here
I was drawing parallels to your summary of the Diamond Dogs tour:
penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:40 amAgain, the facts are simple: Bowie toured with an ambitious and frequently malfunctioning theatrical stage set which broke new ground, received mixed reviews and was abandoned earlier than expected.
They couldn't take the Wall anywhere else since Roger refused to perform it in stadiums, but there were many offers and the rest of the band considered having Andy Bown perform Roger's parts on additional legs of the tour.
penguinzzz wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:55 pm
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:55 pm Had the Floyd been the first band to perform there, they would also have had people dancing naked, pissing in the aisles, and rushing the ground-level stage.
OK I'm going to move along soon.... but honestly I can't decide if you're serious here or not? Either way it's a hilarious image.
That's what happened at Bowie's show - 18,000 people, most of them couldn't see or hear shit, so they started pushing in all directions and people were spilling out into the streets just to avoid being crushed. The rest of the tour went very well, which is pretty impressive considering he played more shows in '72-73 than the Floyd did in '72-75. He also filmed the famous "Life on Mars?" music video backstage at Earls Court before the show!
Kerry King
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by Kerry King »

the stripped-down "Philly Soul Tour"
Let's talk about the preposterous idea of Bowie attempting to pull off "Philly Soul".
ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Kerry King wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:17 amLet's talk about the preposterous idea of Bowie attempting to pull off "Philly Soul".
I don't think you want to do that.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by Kerry King »

^ Enough said.