Mexico 2016

[azza200]

One Of These Days from the videos i have seen someone else is doing most of the bass Roger is playing bass but not lead bass the keyboard parts in the ending solo after the vocal part are apparently from the album and not live

[Follix]

Songs on Animals are not Roger centric for a second... Ok he wrote all lyrics and the melody of Pigs but all these songs with a tone of keyboard work and long instrumental doesn't sound like Roger for a second... Rick and Dave input was critical same thing with SYOCD (where Roger's intro makes me cringe)

When I watch the setlist, only thing I see as being ''pure Roger'':

Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun
Welcome to the Machine
Pigs on the Wings
All The Wall stuff minus Run Like Hell and Comfortably Numb.
Brain Damage/Eclipse

But all the rest is not Roger centric, I mean it's a fine set list for a Pink Floyd fan he does the Animals stuff and I respect that a lot but it is a cover band featuring Roger on bass and pre-recorded voice. But beside Roger's presence does it worth more than Australian Floyd or Brit Floyd ?

Also as much as I dislike the guitarist on SYOCD I enjoy his Comfortably Numb version... It got feeling, tone and everything... But it does sounds too much like a studio version imitation, not really a rock concert state of mind.

[kjek1]

I really like Rogers current player. His version of comfy Numb is by far the best outside of Dave's.

Also Follix is right. Also found it weird he ends with C Numb, that's Dave's baby and the biggest platform where he shows his genius as a guitar player and as a singer, Roger not so much.

Rog should end his shows with Brain Damage/Eclipse

[Flathead]

Songs on Animals are not Roger centric for a second... Ok he wrote all lyrics and the melody of Pigs but all these songs with a tone of keyboard work and long instrumental doesn't sound like Roger for a second... Rick and Dave input was critical same thing with SYOCD (where Roger's intro makes me cringe)

Why do you think David doesn't play anything from Animals?

Those are all Roger's songs, and he and Dave played most of the keyboards.

But all the rest is not Roger centric, I mean it's a fine set list for a Pink Floyd fan he does the Animals stuff and I respect that a lot but it is a cover band featuring Roger on bass and pre-recorded voice. But beside Roger's presence does it worth more than Australian Floyd or Brit Floyd ?

Are you joking? you're comparing the guy who created the songs from scratch, the album art, the concept, the lyrics, the theme, and the entire Pink Floyd live innovation to an Australian cover band?

That is *insane* logic.

[Flathead]

I really like Rogers current player. His version of comfy Numb is by far the best outside of Dave's.

Also Follix is right. Also found it weird he ends with C Numb, that's Dave's baby and the biggest platform where he shows his genius as a guitar player and as a singer, Roger not so much.

Rog should end his shows with Brain Damage/Eclipse

Roger co-wrote Comfortably Numb and sang the verse (one could argue Ezrin co-wrote, too).

Comfortably Numb is the ultimate example of Waters and Gilmour's working brilliance, Waters "the dark" and then Gilmour coming in as "the light" for the chorus. It's always going to sound weak without both of them there. It sounds and looks especially stupid with Guy Pratt prancing around like it's a dance number.

Kudos to Roger for a much, much better fan-aware setlist. The concerts also seem to have a lot more fire and energy.

[kjek1]

I really like Rogers current player. His version of comfy Numb is by far the best outside of Dave's.

Also Follix is right. Also found it weird he ends with C Numb, that's Dave's baby and the biggest platform where he shows his genius as a guitar player and as a singer, Roger not so much.

Rog should end his shows with Brain Damage/Eclipse

Roger co-wrote Comfortably Numb and sang the verse (one could argue Ezrin co-wrote, too).

Comfortably Numb is the ultimate example of Waters and Gilmour's working brilliance, Waters "the dark" and then Gilmour coming in as "the light" for the chorus. It's always going to sound weak without both of them there. It sounds and looks especially stupid with Guy Pratt prancing around like it's a dance number.

Nah that's utter bollocks. Dave still blows people away with comfy Numb. You won't see people getting goosebumps over Rogers bass. Ah co-wrote, you mean like Waters, Gilmour and Wright co-wrote most of the songs you mentioned previously. You've even got Roger doing their album art now

As I said previously, you're rather delusional and blinded or sometimes ignorant when it comes to the history of Pink Floyd and music production in general

Ps, Pratts a great bass player, if he had been in PF Dave might not have had to record the bass parts too

[Flathead]

amazing, amazing show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obn4R4xEJ7s

The mastermind of Pink Floyd, bringing it.

As much as Gilmour is great, this is just sooo much better. Lots of energy, big spectacle. Very, very self-aware of Roger to realize his solo songs have no place in such amazing company.

David showing up at Pompeii with half his terrible solo songs was a real injustice. Bravo Roger!

Instead of getting countless, pad-intro boring solo songs all #56789 variation of Shine On, We get the fire of ANIMALS. Unreal! Especially since Meddle and Animals are my favorite Floyd albums. They just have a bit more edge than the others.

[kjek1]

Yeah you can't beat the experience of hearing pre-recorded vocals...erm....live?

Roger doesn't have any solo songs he's been too busy rehashing his past glories with his pink floyd tribute band.

"Roger Waters - the pre-recorded vocals and (occasional) bass of pink floyd. Don't worry there's lots of lights and political messages to keep you distracted so it's still worth it. Please book now"

Nice that you had no retort to my previous post. Does getting slapped around these forums ever get old for you?

[Flathead]

I know, I totally agree with you, Kejk1. I'd much rather hear "5 A.M." than "Pigs".


That's the REAL Pink Floyd. Thanks for replying to my post. Now back to my Yanni cd....

[madcaplaugh70]

A little while ago I began a thread to find out more about the debate over song credits given or not given for “The Wall”. I had my reservations, should someone like FLATHEAD enter the discussion and use it as a platform to satisfy your seemingly insatiable need to sing the praises of Rogers Waters and totally denigrate David Gilmour in the process. Fortunately, that was not the case and the thread featured some interesting information and insights into how “The Wall” tracks came about and songs credited solely to Waters from the previous three albums. Thanks to all who responded!

However, since ownership of Pink Floyd tracks is once again in the news, here’s my two cents (just a warning, it’s really long-winded)…

Many a musical group has fallen out at one time or another over the delegation of song credits, especially when the songs were officially published. The Floyd is no exception, as the name(s) that appear beside tracks are, in many cases, erroneous to say the least.

Take the early days: it seems nearly all the soundtrack or unreleased jamming-like compositions (“More”, “The Committee”, “Zabriskie Point”, ‘Moonhead’, ‘Corrosion’, etc.) would be credited to the entire band by default even if one or more of the members didn’t have a hand in composing such works (only slightly more than a handful featured lyrics, likely all from Waters, and, arguably, much of the instrumental pieces were driven by Gilmour and/or Wright). Waters had nothing to do with the recording of ‘Alan’s Psychedelic Breakfast’ (wasn’t he away finishing “The Body” with Geesin?), yet he is co-credited. ‘Party Sequence’ from “More” is strangely credited to the whole band. Wright wrote ‘Absolutely Curtains’, but again all of Pink Floyd is credited. Etc, etc.

Imagine if Dave, Rick, and Nick had exhibited the same attitude towards song credits that Roger later adopted from 1974 onwards during the early years (until 1972’s “Obscured by Clouds”). It wouldn’t appear that the former were very outspoken about what they did compared to the others, even though, hypothetically, they could have raised the following issues: maybe David should have demanded sole credit for ‘Seamus’ because he was the one who alerted the band to the fact that the dog in question would start howling when a harmonica was played, which led to the track being recorded (I mean, it was Gilmour’s ‘concept’, right? – sorry, couldn’t resist); Wright could have argued for a co-credit for the haunting coda he wrote for ‘Cirrus Minor’; Wright’s trombone solo and Gilmour’s heavy guitar solo in ‘Biding My Time’, which definitely takes the song along a different course?; or, maybe Roger could have been ordered to cite “lyrics taken from a book of Chinese poetry” for ‘Set the Controls…’, etc. (you get my point—they didn’t obsess over such things). Look at the two 23+ minutes-long suites of the era. Waters appears to have had minimal writing input into the final version of ‘Atom Heart Mother’ (and seemed to downplay ‘outsider’ Geesin’s original contributions) and, while he wrote the alleged ‘Across the Universe’-inspired lyrics for ‘Echoes’ (on a given day my favourite Floyd tune along with ‘Childhood’s End’), other than the ‘scary’ bass sounds in the middle, the music and vocal harmony is down to Rick and Dave, especially given there penchant for complex structure and melody/harmony. And what do you get if you play the intro to Gilmour’s ‘Unknown Song’ from the Z. Point sessions a little slower and change to electric guitar—maybe the ‘Brain Damage’ main riff (makes you wonder what he was playing before the track fades in…)? And so on and so on it can go…

Following the success of TDSOTM, David, Rick, and Nick resigned themselves to the new reality that Roger was on the cusp of megalomania and obsessed with the idea that each subsequent release would also be a concept album and would feature his lyrics. Fine, so be it. It worked out great for Rush and other bands. I have no complaints, as we’ve all had to work with leader-types in various work settings, whether the experience is pleasant or not. And as you know, by 1974 Roger began to get antsy about wanting to sing all the songs if possible and would produce the odd rough demo of him strumming on acoustic and singing lyrics to verses he just wrote. Remember that in the 1970s a number of songwriting credits went to the songwriter(s) alone, and this was the time when this practice really began to apply to the Floyd.

Within this context, keep in mind that Rick, Dave, and Nick have all said that Roger was not a musical force behind Floyd in the ‘glory days’ (Gilmour said that the words became more important than the music as time went on) and that Roger took tons of credit for some of the music when he just did the lyrics. Past discussions on this topic on other forums were typified by posts like this: “Dave and Richard were the musical forces behind THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON (1973). Dave was the musical force behind the Floyd in WISH YOU WERE HERE (1975) and ANIMALS (1977). Dave had a lot of input in THE WALL (1979), but did not receive credit for it. THE WALL without Dave would have ended up like THE FINAL CUT (1983).”

I raised the issue with musician friends and music teachers I know (who in turn did the same with their friends in music-related circles), some of whom compose themselves. Important to note is that each of them is a Floyd fan who ranges from casual listeners to bonafide PF geeks like my self! Further, all parties have a deep respect for the band (no one takes sides), and many have played Floyd tunes for many years from all the different eras and know about the nuances typified by each member of Floyd.

They were given “WYWH” and “Animals” to ponder. It was decided to have separate categories for music and lyrics, since Waters wrote the words. It should be noted that much fun was had by all and an even deeper appreciation of PF’s work was garnered. Here goes, then let the discussion begin:

WISH YOU WERE HERE (1975):
1. SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAMOND Pts. 1-9 (taken as one 26-minute track)
(Music: Gilmour/Wright/minimal Waters; Lyrics: Waters)
Didn’t Gilmour’s famous 4-note sequence inspire Roger to write his wonderful poetic ode to Syd and his gradual deterioration? It’s common knowledge that this track was honed on the road, but the finished studio product, short of Waters’s fingers on a wine glass at the start or a bass melody or help with the vocal harmonies, this came across as a classic Gilmour/Wright musical effort (think side 1 of “The Endless River” and the like). This is Dave and Rick’s favourite PF album, and the full-length song takes up 60% of “WYWH” and stands as the band’s last opus (such tracks never featured in Roger’s work since then, including his solo recordings). A true consolidation of music that gave an enduring quality to the words! Don’t make them like that anymore…

2. WELCOME TO THE MACHINE
(Music: written, arranged, and produced by Pink Floyd; Lyrics: Waters)
This one puzzles a number of fans with the sole credit to Waters. He’s on record as saying that he wrote the words and a rough sketch of the tune for the verses and that the rest was created in the studio (5+ minutes of a seven-and-a-half-minute song). Without a demo circulating, it’s hard to say what the starting point was. But this is not a usual track—no backing track, per se—as it seems on the surface to have been a studio project to formulate a real ‘machine’ sound throughout, possibly a group effort using the available technology in true Floyd style? In the WYWH songbook, Gilmour says: “It's very much a made-up-in-the-studio thing which was all built up from a basic throbbing made on a VCS 3, with a one repeat echo used so that each 'boom' is followed by an echo repeat to give the throb. With a number like that, you don't start off with a regular concept of group structure or anything, and there's no backing track either. Really it is just a studio proposition where we're using tape for its own ends -- a form of collage using sound.” I love the middle section in particular—was cited by most to have the sound and feel of a Gilmour/Wright collaborative effort, especially those sublime synth fills.

3. HAVE A CIGAR
(Music: Gilmour/Waters; Lyrics: Waters; additional acknowledgements – Keyboard arrangements: Wright, vocal arrangement: Roy Harper)
RE: a thread a while ago on another PF forum whose discussion dealt with a possible link between the lyrics of "Childhood's End' and 'Time'(since refuted), a Pink Floyd fan and musician responded with this: "Grab 'ur guitar and bash out the intro to 'Childhood's End', then crank into 'Have a Cigar'--there's your recycling in full swing. I love to play through the (short and) very sharp solo in 'Childhoods End', sometimes without the catch on the G left in the studio performance! I love this track, more than anything else in the Pink Floyd catalogue. Who copied who with the lyrics? Don't really care, 'Time' and 'Childhood's End' are so far apart it doesn't matter, but if I was to guess, based on the fact that Roger Waters didn't demand a writing credit, it's all down to David Gilmour"...I was skeptical at first, but it’s cool—and obvious—when you see a live demonstration. Pink Floyd was a master of this, as were other bands (for a quick reference see the guitar riff for Led Zeppelin’s “Moby Dick” and “The Girl I Love She Got Long Black Wavy Hair”). No demo has surfaced, so we’re left to speculate what Roger brought to the table musically. Kudos to Rick Wright’s AWESOME playing here (who actually came up with that recurring keyboard fill?) and Roy Harper’s spectacular rendering of the vocal track (“Everybody else is just greeeeeeeen”). If you get to hear only the vocal track you realize what an indelible impression his particular performance made on this track, let alone a reading in the guise of an avant-garde poet, just fantastic.

4. WISH YOU WERE HERE
(Music: Gilmour; Lyrics: Waters)
Apart from any co-opting on the vocal harmonies, this is seen another example of Gilmour eloquently putting to music a wonderful poem written beforehand by Roger, I believe?




ANIMALS (1977):
1. PIGS ON THE WIND Pts 1 and 2
(Music and Lyrics: Waters) – not discussed, as splitting this track up has too often been cited as an attempt by Waters to grab songwriting royalties for two separate tracks instead of one, although Snowy White should be acknowledged for writing/arranging and performing his solo on the 8-track version).

For the next three tracks, keep in mind the well-documented quotes from Nick, Roger, and David about this album:
Nick Mason: "This was a bit of a return to the group feel, quite a cheerful session as I remember. We did it in our own studio, which we'd just built. By now Roger was in full flow with the ideas, but he was also really keeping Dave down, and frustrating him deliberately."
Roger Waters: "I didn't like a lot of the writing on Animals, but unfortunately I didn't have anything to offer.”
David Gilmour: "On Animals I was the prime musical force. Roger was the motivator and lyric writer."
It’s also been written that “both Waters and Gilmour were at this point jostling over creative control. And although the concept for the LP belonged to Waters, it was Gilmour who was asserting himself at least as far as what direction the album should take musically, thus sowing the seeds of contention and animosity that would plague the group from then on until their bitter breakup in the early ‘80s.”

2. DOGS
(Music: Gilmour/Wright/Waters; Lyrics: Waters)
Allegedly born out of a jam session and developed on the road as ‘You Gotta Be Crazy’, musically this is awesome and ultimately a Gilmour track, although Waters figures in there and Waters comes in at the end. Wonderful composition and playing by David that lost nothing with the song title and lyric changes. Sadly, the last extended (nearly one vinyl side) progressive tour-de-force by the band.

3. PIGS (Three Different Ones)
(Music: Waters [verses]/Gilmour [intro, middle section incl. vocal composition on the Hiel talk-box, and outro incl. the guitar solo, and possibly the bass composition for the track—is this the track for which Roger won an award for bass-playing when it was David who played it?)
The above was the general consensus, given that no demo is circulating. And, it was pointed out that the rhythm track for the verses is a candidate for another case of recycling, like ‘Childhood’s End’ to ‘Have a Cigar’ to ‘Pigs’??? And, the musical changes to the song on stage (17 to 20 minutes long) may hint at a dominant Gilmour presence right from the start?


4. SHEEP
(Music: Gilmour/Wright/Waters/Mason; Lyrics: Waters)
I like this one better when it was ‘Raving and Drooling’, with Gilmour and Wright dominating. Yet another born out of a band jam in 1974, a lineage was developed for this piece: “’One of These Days’ (bass guitar played through a delay (echo) unit and the Dr. Who-like middle section) -> "The Travel Sequence" (1972 TDSOTM demo [last section of piece] - released on TDSOTM Immersion set) -> ‘Money’ (Gilmour's guitar solo sections) -> "Raving and Drooling" (performed live during all of Pink Floyd's 1974 and 1975 tour dates) -> "Sheep" (recorded for the ANIMALS album).” Yes, even with the extra lyrics and effects added to the album, ‘Sheep’ doesn’t really differ drastically from its predecessor. I’m not sure how many fans have heard the studio demo for “The Travel Sequence” featured on the TDSOTM Immersion set, but it proves quite interesting. A shortened version (minus Wright’s keyboard solo in the middle), the boogie-like section only hinted at on stage is here featured for 40 seconds before it fades out. There were a lot of ‘baas’, because this section appears to be the foundation for ‘Sheep’s’ rhythm/backing track that IS essentially the song. If so, it certainly goes far to explain why Gilmour has been so sore about Roger taking sole credit for this track, let alone the final section of ‘Sheep’. Whenever ‘The Travel Sequence’ is referenced, it appears to be noted as a Gilmour or Gilmour/Wright piece. Didn’t tricky Nicky say that when push came to shove that those pieces in the so-called ‘rubbish bin’ would be revisited for possible use????

Cheers…

[mastaflatch]

That's the REAL Pink Floyd.

Well, Roger Waters isn't Pink Floyd but his live shows of late seem to crave to foster the idea that he is in a much more blatant way than David Gilmour's shows.

I know that most people don't care about this tiny fact but some of us actually love Waters' solo stuff - at least, some of it. There's highly valuable material in his solo cannon that would benefit the juxtaposition to some of his most personnal stuff from the PF years. His In the Flesh tour was beyond great because of that. So maybe that's what the odd complainers like me complain about: we love Roger and Pink Floyd and what Pink Floyd used to be with Roger but now let's hear it from who Roger is now. The cover band accusations are fair (and it's nothing against the musicians in Roger's band but I feel like they're kept on a much shorter leash than Pink Floyd themselves were in the seventies - when they played those unique concerts jamming and going with the flow, adapting their albums to the limitations of a four-piece, testing stuff on stage, being inspired at the risk of making a bum note...).

[kjek1]

It cracks me up when he talks about "writing Comfortably Numb". He's so insecure and you can tell it kills him that the most popular song on his beloved Wall album is a Gilmour inspired song. You can still see traces of that megalomania and insecurity on the making of WYWH when he's deluding himself into thinking he could sing Have A Cigar better than Roy Harper.

[Follix]

Why do you think David doesn't play anything from Animals?
Those are all Roger's songs, and he and Dave played most of the keyboards.

Dogs is David music, Roger simply put it a step lower so it fits his voice better but the whole 17 minutes of it is Gilmour work except off course lyrics.

Pigs In the books it's a song Roger wrote alone, but since he never did anything that sound close alone and Gilmour got one his best solos by the end it's hard to minimize Dave and Rick impact here. The 4 minutes promo might be solo Roger but the whole 11 minutes? No way. Let alone bass playing is an highlight and again it's David.


Off course the only song David could play solo would be Dogs since it's his music, his vocal and his guitar... Why he doesn't do it? Maybe because it's too long, too hard on the vocals and the lyrics are too harsh? Who knows.

Are you joking? you're comparing the guy who created the songs from scratch, the album art, the concept, the lyrics, the theme, and the entire Pink Floyd live innovation to an Australian cover band?

That is *insane* logic.

It's not because he created the whole thing that he is a better live performer, all he does is really hit a couple of bass notes, ''sing'' with technical help and rant about the government and/or capitalism, it doesn't require exceptional skills and his guys plays pretty much the same show note for note night after night. David Gilmour on the other hand improvise his solos night after night.

And yeah I prefer Pigs to 5am but since the first one is at 95% a cover and the second is original I am not that sure, let alone I prefer pretty much anything on Rattle that Lock that a boring Wall filler.

In other words I don't see much of a difference between an Aussie Floyd show and RW show, but DG is something else. I mean Waters show is more or less a Dave Kilminster and Jon Carin show featuring Roger on bass and pre-recorded vocals.

[drafsack]

In other words I don't see much of a difference between an Aussie Floyd show and RW show

Then your a tw*t if you can't see the difference between a covers band who not only nicked all the songs also nicked the stage show and someone who wrote the majority of the songs and was instrumental in putting on stage shows that were ground breaking and the template for most of the stage shows used by bands today.

Regardless of what you think if Rog tours this show a majority of the ney sayers and Rog haters on this board will be there singing along to the songs he wrote and having a good time.

[Flathead]

Then your a tw*t if you can't see the difference between a covers band who not only nicked all the songs also nicked the stage show and someone who wrote the majority of the songs and was instrumental in putting on stage shows that were ground breaking and the template for most of the stage shows used by bands today.

Yup.

And I'm not going to bother addressing the exhausting conspiracy theories up the thread. The credits for the songs are wrong, and it's all conjecture.