Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

All discussion related specifically to Roger Waters.
ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

"This concept will not only bring you sales information for all the Pink Floyd’s albums, physical and download singles, as well as audio and video streaming, but it will also determine their true popularity." So, because Pink Floyd is popular, they inflate the numbers...that makes a lot of sense.

Streaming is interesting because it counts every time you listen to a song or an album; I bought The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking on CD ages ago, but I reserve the right to not listen to it. This analytical formula should actually subtract all of the times that I haven't listened to it from it's actual sales figures.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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That what is interesting here to me is 'Physical Studio Albums' sale numbers, and possibly other physical sale numbers(compilations and singels...). I don't care for the other numbers here very much.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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space triangle wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:52 pm That what is interesting here to me is 'Physical Studio Albums' sale numbers, and possibly other physical sale numbers(compilations and singels...). I don't care for the other numbers here very much.
Even those numbers are inflated. Check their math - their "CSPC" is a total of all of those columns, meaning each of those columns have already been adjusted with their formula. I am only referencing certified sales.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

In 1987, Roger said, "It sold three million copies, which wasn’t a lot for the Pink Floyd." This means that even if Roger was rounding up, or if the certified sales numbers are low...very, very, very few copies of The Final Cut have been sold in the past 34 years.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by Yucateco »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 pm In 1987, Roger said, "It sold three million copies, which wasn’t a lot for the Pink Floyd." This means that even if Roger was rounding up, or if the certified sales numbers are low...very, very, very few copies of The Final Cut have been sold in the past 34 years.
But not the worst selling
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 pm In 1987, Roger said, "It sold three million copies, which wasn’t a lot for the Pink Floyd." This means that even if Roger was rounding up, or if the certified sales numbers are low...very, very, very few copies of The Final Cut have been sold in the past 34 years.
Pink Floyd renewed its popularity during the AMLOR & Division Bell albums and tours. A lot of new young people came to the concerts, and for the first time 'discovered' Pink Floyd. Probably a lot of them discovered and bought older Pink Floyd albums as well, and thus, in some extent, The Final Cut too.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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space triangle wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:40 pm Pink Floyd renewed its popularity during the AMLOR & Division Bell albums and tours. A lot of new young people came to the concerts, and for the first time 'discovered' Pink Floyd. Probably a lot of them discovered and bought older Pink Floyd albums as well, and thus, in some extent, The Final Cut too.
Again, it currently has significantly fewer than 3 million certified sales. If it had already sold let's say 2 million in the four years following its release, interest has fallen off a cliff since then.

Long story short, and back to the original point: Roger's often full of shit.

And to your point that he was responsible for two of the best-selling albums, again, he's certainly never repeated that success on his own, despite his claim that Amused to Death is the missing part of the trilogy. As much as he struggled in his early solo career, he's very well known these days, and if he'd produced other masterpieces along the way, they would have been recognized as such by now. He's still just a few anti-Israeli comments away from being written out of the history books.

Syd Barrett was once able to create amazing songs, until he wasn't. It's like that.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:10 pm He's a wanker.

Four days before Pink Floyd's "Mr. Screen" made it's debut, David Bowie kicked off his Diamond Dogs tour, where the stage was designed to look like a city. The set weighed 6 tons and had over 20,000 moving parts; he sang "Space Oddity" while being swung over the audience by a crane.
Leaving aside Waters' typical charm and modesty, I think it's fairly unexceptional to say the Floyd were as involved as anyone in "inventing rock'n'roll spectacle" (a terrible phrase in the first place). Starting with lights & projections in the Barrett era, moving through the inflatable at Crystal Palace 71, and I guess reaching a point around Earls Court 73 where the show had become a 'spectacle' with the plane crash, hanging domes and mirror balls, pyrotechnics etc.

It's interesting comparing with Bowie as, of course, he played the first ever show at Earls Court in May 73 - a week before PF - and it was famously a disaster (at least in the eyes of contemporary critics and some fans) due to inadequate staging and sound. The comparison with the very well received PF show was stark and I imagine Bowie took some notice - as you say his 74 tour was a massively expanded foray into full-on theatrics and stage design. We could also mention other developments in 1973 - Yes' stage collaboration with Roger Dean, ELP using a circular projection screen and so on.

Regarding some other comments here about U2 etc, again I think it's fair to say the 'In The Flesh' 1977 tour was groundbreaking if only for the beginnings of the Fisher / Park design team, who went on (via the Wall shows) to define the look of cutting edge staging in the 80s and 90s - including the mega Rolling Stones and U2 tours. I'd imagine Waters comments re: Bono may have also been related to this.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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penguinzzz wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:26 pm Leaving aside Waters' typical charm and modesty, I think it's fairly unexceptional to say the Floyd were as involved as anyone in "inventing rock'n'roll spectacle" (a terrible phrase in the first place).
This. There was no one inventor of this concept, but Pink Floyd were very much involved in the genesis of the idea. I just take issue with Waters seeming to say he invented it on his lonesome. Furthermore as far as I remember the psychedelic effects for early Floyd shows were Barrett's idea, so he's not even particularly right there.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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Jefferson Airplane was also using light shows in the States by 1966, and they were considerably larger. The earliest psychedelic light shows were at the Red Dog Saloon in Nevada, beginning in June of 1965; the Fillmore East started using their own light show six months later. From late '69 to late '71, Pink Floyd stopped using their light show in response to critics who claimed it was the reason for their success, which culminated in the no-frills Live at Pompeii.

"We went through a period where we blew out our entire light show for two years and there was no real difference. I personally know for a fact that it wouldn’t make any difference if we did it again." - Gilmour, 1975
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by Kerry King »

Yes rock and roll was "invented" in America and so was the r&r spectacle. The acid tests in 1966 had films, lights, sfx, the merry pranksters and the grateful dead all at once and were a step beyond what the red dog and others had been doing since before pf existed.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by penguinzzz »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:00 am Jefferson Airplane was also using light shows in the States by 1966, and they were considerably larger. The earliest psychedelic light shows were at the Red Dog Saloon in Nevada, beginning in June of 1965; the Fillmore East started using their own light show six months later. From late '69 to late '71, Pink Floyd stopped using their light show in response to critics who claimed it was the reason for their success, which culminated in the no-frills Live at Pompeii.

"We went through a period where we blew out our entire light show for two years and there was no real difference. I personally know for a fact that it wouldn’t make any difference if we did it again." - Gilmour, 1975
Oh dear. No one is saying PF 'invented' the light show any more than they invented the light bulb.

Once again: PF were a band whose performances involved visuals and sound effects, beyond straightforward musical presentation, since their early days. They became well known for this. Post-Barrett they developed their quad system mainly for sound effects, and introduced various visual elements leading up to the first Eclipse performances which were a more complete, conceptual audio / visual presentation. As I said, by the time they got to Earls Court 73 the show was more fully developed 'spectacular' with many signature effects fully in place.

It's surprising this stuff should need to posted on a PF forum of all places, it's such common knowledge. Waters comment may be bigheaded hyperbole but it doesn't take away from what the facts of what the band was doing.

As for the Gilmour '75 quote, it's part of the 'dirty hair' episode where he's in a very defensive mood, denying that the band is using visuals to distract from indifferent musical performances. I know you like to paste these quotes everywhere but a bit of context doesn't hurt. Of course a few weeks after this interview Waters won the argument on conceptualizing the new LP (which them became WYWH) so PF further became a vehicle for Waters' spectacle, whatever else Gilmour thought about it. For better or worse.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

penguinzzz wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:33 pmWaters comment may be bigheaded hyperbole but it doesn't take away from what the facts of what the band was doing.
No, it takes away from what many other artists were doing at the time.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:47 pm
penguinzzz wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:33 pmWaters comment may be bigheaded hyperbole but it doesn't take away from what the facts of what the band was doing.
No, it takes away from what many other artists were doing at the time.
As we've already established.
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Re: Roger Waters - I invented the Rock'n'roll spectacle

Post by battra »

theaussiefloydian wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:42 pm Yeah trying to say he's the one person who invented the rock n' roll spectacle is telling of his enormous ego. I don't think any one person can be attributed to that, but Pink Floyd and David Bowie were certainly pioneers in that area.
I'll gladly give Roger 1/100th of the credit or having invented the rock'n'roll spectacle.

I would make the claim though...he may have perfected it with The Wall stage show.

But invented? No. About 100 dudes (all of whom are important) created little things here and there to create the rock spectacle. Before the 70's, you had to impress the crowd with just your music....