Finally a decent Barrett book?

[Wolfpack]

If Syd Barrett wouldn't have been in Pink Floyd, how would he have had an income? It's thanks to the success of Pink Floyd, that Barrett didn't need to work anymore.
Some people seem to find it normal that Barret't stopped working at only 24 years old. The excuse is that he just didn't want to do what others ask him. Just imagine a "normal" person having such an attitude towards a boss and customers.
And even when Syd got his way, he failed. Look at the recording progress of his solo-albums. Without the help of members Pink Floyd he couldn't finish the recordings. And THEY had to do what HE liked. Just imagine them having the same spoilt attitude as Barrett.

Syd Barrett could live a rather "normal" life, thanks to others helping him. People like Pink Floyd and his family. Without their support, Barrett would have been obviously, helplessly lost.

[nosaj]

1. Is it sane to destroy your professional career and go retire at 24 years old?

2. Is it sane to burn paintings in your garden?

3. That's more than just odd. Barrett was so creative and so much an artist, that he destroyed what he made. Why? Was it an artistic statement? Who was looking then?

4. In the past I was the first to believe that Barrett turned his life into an artistic statement. But life is too worthwhile to turn into an artistic product. So, even if Barrett was acting, it would still be crazy.

1. Yes. Some of us don't like people who are careerists - careerists are meek, boring, MOR types that hold the world back from reaching our potential outside the "normal" bounds of collective society. Lots of people destroy their "professional career" - I did.

2/3. I have burned hundreds of my paintings (without documenting them). Anybody who paints should at least burn one painting in their lifetime. Besides, sometimes you paint for you and that is it...start sharing with the world, and your articstic expression gets subsumed by the commodity world, and your "art" because just another consumer product...I was offered money for my paintings when I was younger, and in each case I immediately took the painting off the wall at an opening and destroyed it in front of everybody (I stopped painting and moved onto more difficult art)> nobody could buy what I made. Sometimes "being" an artist is living as an artist to the full extent.

4. Living life as an artistic statement can be more fullfilling inside than being a boring old careerist...maybe not as lucrative...

[Hudini]

Just imagine a "normal" person having such an attitude towards a boss and customers.

But you keep comparing international rock and roll stardom to working in a grocery store. It's not nearly the same thing. The pressures and the frustrations are not nearly the same, especially when someone is literally forcing you to do what you don't want to do.

[my breakfast.]

For a Syd fan I must say Wolfpack that you have a very confined idea of what constitutes normal behaviour! I dare say you have made a prison in your own mind my friend!

[Wolfpack]

Some people need to work to have a living. Mainly thanks to the success of Pink Floyd, Syd could live like a kid having a holiday - whether he enjoyed it or not.

I've read a lot of books and articles on Barrett. I can't imagine them to be worthless now 'A Very Irregular Head' has appeared.

That is covered in the book. The book Crazy Diamond is dismissed as being factually inaccurate. Articles are often re-hashes using the same leaky information, or once again factually inaccurate such as that one written by Nick Kent.

What is factually inaccurate? Only some details, I guess. The main story is the same in all books.
I think 'Half-Life' by Tim Willis does a great job.
Unless 'A Very Irregular Head' reveals that Syd Barrett was in fact David Gilmour in disguise, I don't expect much spectacular news.

How is that for a closet-minded statement. So the minute you don't have a longterm career plan you are insane?

That's a wrong summary. I didn't say that.

Crazy has a huge negative weight to it. Maybe a better word would be good for somebody who found society difficult to function in.

What better word would you choose? How do you describe a person who himself said he has "a very irregular head"? Reading recent posts here, I'm surprised no one is offended that Barrett called himself that way.

1. Is it sane to go on with your "professional career" pursuing it the way others think it's best? Or is it more sane giving up once you realize you don't want to pursue it the way others think it's best and you're too weak to pursue it alone on your own?

Even when Syd went out of Pink Floyd and decided (or was made) to record a solo record, there were others (namely the rest of the band) who though they knew what's best for him to do. They overdubbed his recordings with drums and keyboards, for God's sake. Do you honestly believe it was the way he inteded his songs to turn out?

Please get the facts straight. Who says that Barrett wanted unplugged albums?
Barrett asked The Soft Machine to overdub, didn't he? Barrett was present during overdubbing. Barrett himself overdubbed.
Stating that Barrett was a victim of overdubs makes him look like a sad, helpless person. Isn't that offending, both to Barrett and Pink Floyd?

I believe that he was just an ordinary bloke with an extraordinary talent but he couldn't cope with it personally. And if that makes him insane then a lot of us must be insane too.

Agreed. I didn't say that Barrett is the only insane person. I think he's as insane as a lot of other people who can't cope with society. Exactly my point. If Barrett didn't have Pink Floyd and his patient family, he might have been one of those many disoriented tramps that get ignored on the streets.

2. I once burned a pile of my old school projects, including sketches, paintings, large scale architectural projects, some models and on top of that an old couch, in my backyard. Does that make me a lunatic? I don't consider myself to be one. I was just rather unsatisfied with those projects and the couch was very old.

Was Barrett such a bad painter? Why did Barrett first take photo's of his paintings if they were so bad?
The only sane reason I can think of is lack of storage room.

3. So, his sister saying he was "being a little odd" is enough for a diagnose? Don't you have a relative who is "a little odd", like the most of us have? And if you do, do you call him insane too?

Wrong summary. I said "being a little odd" is an understatement.

After all, his sister used to live with him until the end. As a "normal" person and a caring sister, she would have recommended him for an institution if he were really insane.

Barrett has been to an institution. A home for lost souls, or something like that. If I remember correctly, his nephew Ian Barrett revealed that.

Unfortunately, I have a friend who is a schizophrenic and the first thing his family did when they found out about it is put him on treatment.

Barrett and your friend are two different cases.
An adult with autism (like Asperger) can be very difficult to be properly diagnosed. Only in recent years, there's more attention for that. Maybe Barrett was one of the unlucky persons slipping through this maze.

5. I agree with Alan that your choice of words is bad here. And I agree with you that Syd couldn't really interact with the society in a way most of the "normal" people do. But when you call it "crazy" it sounds like he was a sociopath or something like that. He did ride his bike, did his shopping, walk in the streets (and I agree that a seven year old can also do that but that's not the point) so he did interact with society in some way.

Why would the word "crazy" sound like he was a sociopath?

How many people you know that live their lives the same way? People who never got married, never had a real job, lived with their parents until their 50s... I know a handful. But the fact that none of them had been in Pink Floyd doesn't make them crazy, does it?

How do these people have a living, without receiving royalties from Pink Floyd? Maybe you find such a mother's child normal, but I'd be very worried if I were his/her parents.

People who commit suicide don't really find it worthwhile. People who struggle with their problems still do. And I believe that Syd did struggle with his frustrations about Pink Floyd for a long time, only his way of dealing with them was running away.

I think the sanest thing Barrett did, was quitting with what he couldn't do. That must have saved his life. He was a professional musician who apparently needed drugs to cope with the music business. The drugs burned him up very fast.

But I do believe that most of the stories we hear about Syd Barrett are at least exaggerated.

I fear that after years of exaggerated stories about "crazy Syd", we'll now get years of exaggerated stories about "normal Syd".

To me it is worse to try and get everybody to conform to the same standard. I could totally understand the British way that the other members dealt with Syd, and I think it is easy for them to say "he went crazy, he had to go" rather than just admit he was still totally lucid, but didn't want to do the banal bullshit being a pop star required of him.

Pink Floyd had become a professional band. They were schoolboys quitting school early. Should they have allowed Barrett to suddenly destroy his own promises?

I mean, I would probably do the same if I had the oppertunity and guts/self belief. For a band that was basically tiny one week to be in the charts the next then being asked about American food on the Pat Boone Show a few months later, they grew too fast because of hungry record executives, and it is little wonder Syd didn't want to play the game.

It wasn't a game, it was work! Pink Floyd had a JOB, which was entertaining people. Barrett signed for it. Barrett signed to do that work.
Take a look at many, many other bands who had to work hard in their early years. The Beatles, for example.

Lots of people destroy their "professional career" - I did.

Who says you are sane?

I was offered money for my paintings when I was younger, and in each case I immediately took the painting off the wall at an opening and destroyed it in front of everybody (I stopped painting and moved onto more difficult art)> nobody could buy what I made. Sometimes "being" an artist is living as an artist to the full extent.

Do you mind if I find this crazy behaviour? For me, such behaviour doesn't need to have anything to do with "living as an artist to the full extent". Or does "the full extent" include insanity?

Just imagine a "normal" person having such an attitude towards a boss and customers.

But you keep comparing international rock and roll stardom to working in a grocery store. It's not nearly the same thing. The pressures and the frustrations are not nearly the same, especially when someone is literally forcing you to do what you don't want to do.

I think this is the very opinion that frustrates a lot of beginning musicians, who realize that record companies want records that sell.

How many people have heard of Syd Barrett? According to a newsletter of publisher Essential Works, sent to me today, the book 'Barrett' doesn’t have quite enough registrations to firm up a production schedule.

How many of you people have in fact discovered Syd Barrett thanks to the huge commercial success of Pink Floyd? Just think about it. Isn't it ironic?
If Barrett got his way, most people here wouldn't know his works at all.

For a Syd fan I must say Wolfpack that you have a very confined idea of what constitutes normal behaviour! I dare say you have made a prison in your own mind my friend!

Barrett himself said he had "a very irregular head". You'd disagree even with him.

[Hudini]

1. How do you describe a person who himself said he has "a very irregular head"? Reading recent posts here, I'm surprised no one is offended that Barrett called himself that way.

2. Who says that Barrett wanted unplugged albums? Barrett asked The Soft Machine to overdub, didn't he? Barrett was present during overdubbing. Barrett himself overdubbed.

3. Stating that Barrett was a victim of overdubs makes him look like a sad, helpless person. Isn't that offending, both to Barrett and Pink Floyd?

4. Was Barrett such a bad painter? Why did Barrett first take photo's of his paintings if they were so bad?

5. How do these people have a living, without receiving royalties from Pink Floyd? Maybe you find such a mother's child normal, but I'd be very worried if I were his/her parents.

6. I fear that after years of exaggerated stories about "crazy Syd", we'll now get years of exaggerated stories about "normal Syd".

7. How many of you people have in fact discovered Syd Barrett thanks to the huge commercial success of Pink Floyd? Just think about it. Isn't it ironic? If Barrett got his way, most people here wouldn't know his works at all.

1. That statement could be understood in many different ways. Assuming that what he meant to say is that he was mentally ill is just one of them. And assuming that there is no other possible way of understanding it is simply narrow minded.

2. First of all, who said that Barrett wanted to do albums at all? It is often told that he seemed vague and uninterested during the recording sessions; is that an image of a person who really wants something done? I might be wrong here, but as far as I know The Soft Machine were approached by Peter Jenner, who was also the initiator of the recording of Syd's first solo album. And the fact that Syd was present during overdubbing doesn't automatically mean it was his idea, or that he did it eagerly if he himself did some overdubbing.

3. So you consider this offending for both Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd, but you don't find it offending for Syd Barrett to state that he was only capable of shopping and riding his bicycle, as is a small child? How's that for a double standard?

4. If you had read my post carefully, you would have noticed that I didn't state that I was a bad draftsman. I don't know if you are trying to offend me here or just twist my words around but it certainly doesn't help you in proving your point here...

5. Well how does anyone without a regular job make a living without royalties from Pink Floyd? You make it sound like there's only two kinds of people in the world: the ones that work and the ones that receive royalties from Pink Floyd. These people I know live off honorary work, exchange crappy jobs or live off a piece of land. Just the fact that they don't have successful careers doesn't make them scum of the Earth you know, which leads us to the point where I must state that your second sentence is a bit fascistic here.

6. I hope that there will come a time when people will listen to Syd Barrett's music because it was brilliant music, not because he was "insane" when he recorded it.

7. Maybe so. Still, there are wonderfully obscure artists from the same era that do have their small audiences even today without any of them being in Pink Floyd. But still I think more people praise his records because he was allegedly insane than because they really deserve it. And that is just a shame.

[my breakfast.]

Good job man. I presume Wolfpack has never listened to much of The Dark Side of the Moon if he thinks that the only way in life is a successful career. Why do people have carreers? To make money right? Syd was making shitloads off money from royalties. I think it is a concession of guilt partly that had Dave playing Syd material on all of his post-Waters stuff. Syd got £3million off the back of the Echoes compilation alone! Syd was not exactly poor. So the other, more cynical, means of looking at a career is that of it being a way of leaving a legacy. People go to crazy lengths to try and be remembered once they die (look at the Pyramids!). Syd managed to create enough music by the time he was 24 that people still remember him. Yes there is always the voyeuristic people who buy the solo works to hear what they think is an ill man jabbering away, but all the indie crowd still totally dig his music. Infact the more likely the Syd fan the less likely they like the later Pink Floyd stuff (listening to Shine On You Crazy Diamond after Syd's solo stuff and it seems like bloated and boring MOR at its finest). All the punks loved Syd, and The Damned even wanted him to mix their album! Did Syd really need a career? One part of him was clearly satisfied with his lot either way.

[PublicImage]

Without the help of members Pink Floyd he couldn't finish the recordings. And THEY had to do what HE liked. Just imagine them having the same spoilt attitude as Barrett.

He was spoilt for wanting to do his own thing on HIS solo albums?

[Wolfpack]

["a very irregular head"] 1. That statement could be understood in many different ways. Assuming that what he meant to say is that he was mentally ill is just one of them. And assuming that there is no other possible way of understanding it is simply narrow minded.

I think it's narrow minded to talk away any hint of Syd's mental problems. If I'd believe you, Barrett was having a great life. You don't seem to see how tragic Syd's life was.
How do you explain Barrett saying he's "full of dust and guitars"?

And how do you explain Barrett overeating himself in the mid-1970s? Was he overeating because he felt great? Wasn't it a symptom of mental problems?
(Of course someone will now accuse me of stating that fat people are insane...)

2. First of all, who said that Barrett wanted to do albums at all? It is often told that he seemed vague and uninterested during the recording sessions; is that an image of a person who really wants something done? I might be wrong here, but as far as I know The Soft Machine were approached by Peter Jenner, who was also the initiator of the recording of Syd's first solo album. And the fact that Syd was present during overdubbing doesn't automatically mean it was his idea, or that he did it eagerly if he himself did some overdubbing.

As far as I know, it was Jenner who led the abandoned sessions of 1968.
Next year, in 1969, Barrett himself approached Malcolm Jones. At that moment Barrett was unwelcome at EMI, so Jones had to do his best for him. Barrett chose Jones as producer, even though Jones was unexperienced as such.
Barrett being "vague" and seemingly "uninterested" has to do with the mental problems that you'd rather not see. Also, Barrett was sometimes simply too stoned to stay awake.

I think that any Barrett-fan who thinks that Barrett was forced to do those albums, should just burn them in the garden.

3. So you consider this offending for both Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd, but you don't find it offending for Syd Barrett to state that he was only capable of shopping and riding his bicycle, as is a small child? How's that for a double standard?

Wrong summary. I didn't say that Barrett was "only capable of shopping and riding his bicycle"'.

4. If you had read my post carefully, you would have noticed that I didn't state that I was a bad draftsman.

That's no answer to what I asked.

You stated:

I once burned a pile of my old school projects, including sketches, paintings, large scale architectural projects, some models and on top of that an old couch, in my backyard. Does that make me a lunatic? I don't consider myself to be one. I was just rather unsatisfied with those projects and the couch was very old.

And then I asked:

Was Barrett such a bad painter? Why did Barrett first take photo's of his paintings if they were so bad?

You suggested Barrett's paintings burning was because of Barrett being "unsatisfied".

5. Well how does anyone without a regular job make a living without royalties from Pink Floyd? You make it sound like there's only two kinds of people in the world: the ones that work and the ones that receive royalties from Pink Floyd. These people I know live off honorary work, exchange crappy jobs or live off a piece of land. Just the fact that they don't have successful careers doesn't make them scum of the Earth you know, which leads us to the point where I must state that your second sentence is a bit fascistic here.

Wrong summary again. You reading "fascistic" messages out of my comments is reason enough for me to quit this discussion.
I asked how Barrett could have retired without receiving royalties. What other income would he have had?

6. I hope that there will come a time when people will listen to Syd Barrett's music because it was brilliant music, not because he was "insane" when he recorded it.

If I understand you correctly, Barrett was forced to make this brilliant music. Wasn't he?
Isn't the screaming in 'Dark Globe' hinting at insanity? What about the MADcap laughing? It's Barrett himself who hints at insanity. Or was he forced to show such an image?

7. Maybe so. Still, there are wonderfully obscure artists from the same era that do have their small audiences even today without any of them being in Pink Floyd. But still I think more people praise his records because he was allegedly insane than because they really deserve it. And that is just a shame.

I praise his records for the songs, the lyrics, the playing and singing, the recording techniques and the artistic liberty. I think the drumming on 'No Good Trying' is groundbreaking. Hear the rare combination of only cymbals and bongo's on 'Late Night'. And hear Barrett's backward guitar overdub on 'Dominoes'. The overdubs of 'Rats' reminds me of 'Interstellar Overdrive'. (Although I find this version of 'Rats' often a bit too chaotic.)

If you want to have an idea how Barrett's Pink Floyd could have developed, then especially the album 'Barrett' is interesting. On that record, weak musicians Mason and Waters are replaced by a better drummer (Shirley) and a better bass player (Gilmour).
Even within Waters's Pink Floyd, Gilmour did the bass on recordings. What you have with the 'Barrett' album is an improved version of Barrett's Pink Floyd.

Yes there is always the voyeuristic people who buy the solo works to hear what they think is an ill man jabbering away, but all the indie crowd still totally dig his music.

In this discussion is suggested that Barrett didn't want to make these albums. I think that's a very negative opinion on his work.

Without the help of members Pink Floyd he couldn't finish the recordings. And THEY had to do what HE liked. Just imagine them having the same spoilt attitude as Barrett.

He was spoilt for wanting to do his own thing on HIS solo albums?

I wrote about Pink Floyd doing Barrett's thing on Barrett's solo albums. They had to do whatever he liked.
So, why couldn't Barrett do what Pink Floyd liked to do on a Pink Floyd album? Is it always Barrett who should get his way? That's what I mean with spoilt.

[Hudini]

1. If I'd believe you, Barrett was having a great life. You don't seem to see how tragic Syd's life was.

2. And how do you explain Barrett overeating himself in the mid-1970s? Was he overeating because he felt great? Wasn't it a symptom of mental problems?

3. Wrong summary. I didn't say that Barrett was "only capable of shopping and riding his bicycle"'.

4. Isn't the screaming in 'Dark Globe' hinting at insanity? What about the MADcap laughing? It's Barrett himself who hints at insanity. Or was he forced to show such an image?

5. Even within Waters's Pink Floyd, Gilmour did the bass on recordings.

6. They had to do whatever he liked. So, why couldn't Barrett do what Pink Floyd liked to do on a Pink Floyd album? Is it always Barrett who should get his way? That's what I mean with spoilt.

1. I never stated that he had a great life. But I don't think that it was that tragic either. It seems as if you're almost trying to make him look like a martyr of some sort, but you must be aware that he's not that.

2. You're making everything about him look like a reflection of mental problems. His overeating might have been caused by a physical condition. But then again, it wouldn't sound as good as "he became fat because he ate a lot and he ate a lot because he was crazy", would it?

3.

Okay, Barrett was able to go shopping and ride a bike. That's something a small kid can do.

Might be. But you also didn't even bother suggesting he was capable of doing anything else than things that even a small kid can do.

4. If I'm reading you correctly, you think that everything that Syd did and said after he left Pink Floyd has a root in his mental condition? You are suggesting that he was desperately hinting at the world that he was insane and that no one took him seriously? That's a bit weird, isn't it?

5. Not really, just in some occasions, which were noted. When you listen to a Pink Floyd album, it's usually Waters who plays the bass.

6. Well, who do you think should get their way on his solo recordings? Him or the rest of the guys?

[LBz]

somebody wrote:

"How many people have heard of Syd Barrett? According to a newsletter of publisher Essential Works, sent to me today, the book 'Barrett' doesn’t have quite enough registrations to firm up a production schedule.
How many of you people have in fact discovered Syd Barrett thanks to the huge commercial success of Pink Floyd? Just think about it. Isn't it ironic?"
***************************************************************
This is true, I never heard of him till the last few years, and I liked Floyd form the mid 70s. I don't think he was a genious or so outstanding. Its when people die who are mediocre at best get the tag of thier supposed greatness.
I do find him fascinating tho. And he prob. did suffer from mental illness broght on by too much substance abuse. I certainly did.

LInda

[LBz]

[quote="Wolfpack"]

And how do you explain Barrett overeating himself in the mid-1970s? Was he overeating because he felt great? Wasn't it a symptom of mental problems?
(Of course someone will now accuse me of stating that fat people are insane...)

IF he was on medication that could have beenj the reason for his overeating. Anti depressants, and anti psychosis meds can do that. But i dunno if he was on it....

Linda

[Wolfpack]

I see straw mans. (Wikipedia: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.")

1. I never stated that he had a great life. But I don't think that it was that tragic either.

I think Barrett's life was very tragic and unfair to him. Life is unfair to anyone having mental problems.

It seems as if you're almost trying to make him look like a martyr of some sort, but you must be aware that he's not that.

2. You're making everything about him look like a reflection of mental problems.

straw mans

His overeating might have been caused by a physical condition. But then again, it wouldn't sound as good as "he became fat because he ate a lot and he ate a lot because he was crazy", would it?

If you look at Barrett detail by detail, every detail can be explained away as if it was just something normal. But when you look at the entire picture, all the details on top of each other, there's a tragic story about someone having severe mental problems.
Barrett chopping flowers in the garden of his girlfriend's mother, Barrett shaving himself during a family party, it can all be explained away as some sort of artistic statement or a joke, but in total there are too much of those anecdotes to get so easily away with. They show a pattern.

3.

Okay, Barrett was able to go shopping and ride a bike. That's something a small kid can do.

Might be. But you also didn't even bother suggesting he was capable of doing anything else than things that even a small kid can do.

??

4. If I'm reading you correctly, you think that everything that Syd did and said after he left Pink Floyd has a root in his mental condition? You are suggesting that he was desperately hinting at the world that he was insane and that no one took him seriously? That's a bit weird, isn't it?

You're not reading me correctly.
I've never suggested that "he was desperately hinting at the world that he was insane and that no one took him seriously".

5. Not really, just in some occasions, which were noted. When you listen to a Pink Floyd album, it's usually Waters who plays the bass.

Gilmour is a better bass player than Waters. That was my point.

6. Well, who do you think should get their way on his solo recordings? Him or the rest of the guys?

The point is that Barrett ALWAYS wanted his way, both in Pink Floyd and solo.

IF he was on medication that could have beenj the reason for his overeating. Anti depressants, and anti psychosis meds can do that. But i dunno if he was on it....

Anti depressants and anti psychosis medicines refer to mental problems.
As I recall, it was Barrett himself telling Pink Floyd about overeating, in 1975, refering to a fridge in his kitchen.

[LBz]

IF he was on medication that could have beenj the reason for his overeating. Anti depressants, and anti psychosis meds can do that. But i dunno if he was on it....

Anti depressants and anti psychosis medicines refer to mental problems.
As I recall, it was Barrett himself telling Pink Floyd about overeating, in 1975, refering to a fridge in his kitchen.[/quote]

Which COULD have been caused by those meds i mentioned, not that it did. I wasn't there to know.

LB

[Hudini]

I see straw mans.

...

Barrett chopping flowers in the garden of his girlfriend's mother, Barrett shaving himself during a family party, it can all be explained away as some sort of artistic statement or a joke, but in total there are too much of those anecdotes to get so easily away with. They show a pattern.

I see a rather inconsistent forum poster who either slightly changes his point of view from post to post or has absolutely no clue about what he's posting but keeps on posting it anyway because he won't admit a draw. Not defeat, a draw. Since neither one of us can be proven right because there is no solid evidence of Syd Barrett being sane or not. But at least I am flexible enough to admit it, and it has nothing to do with my point of view.

So, what is the pattern then? Are you a psychiatrist? What do anecdotes from Syd Barrett's life tell us about his mental condition, and, in the end, what is his diagnose?

As I already mentioned, I once burned a pile of my old work and an old couch. I didn't mention that I once shaved my head for no real reason, jumped out of a moving train, walked through a traffic only tunnel during very heavy traffic, jumped into an empty pool, broke into a house of one of my girlfriends while she was away, left the class in high school by jumping out of a window and wore short trousers in November quite a few times. I'm so glad that people around me are not like you, I'd be institutionalized ten times by now.