Rhamadam - How good is it ?

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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by Wolfpack »

Sydbarrett.com wrote:An addition to An Introduction To Syd Barrett is the previously-unreleased 20-minute instrumental 'Rhamadan'. Produced by former Pink Floyd and Syd co-manager Peter Jenner, the list of musicians is lost in the mists of time, though it's rumoured to include congas by Steve Peregrine Took of Tyrannosaurus Rex. It is to be offered as an extra downloadable track with the CD (via an auxiliary Website), and also the iTunes version of the album. Once again Damon Iddins and Andy Jackson mixed it in 2010.
source: http://www.sydbarrett.com/home.htm

So, 'Rhamadan' also is a 2010 mix.
Wolfpack wrote:You liked what you heard, didn't you? Wouldn't the mix be boring if they were excluded? All I remember reading is that Barrett wanted motorbike noises in the mix, but that it's not known where and how he wanted them. However, a release of 'Rhamadan' without any motorbike noises would be against his intentions and be "scandalous and most depressing" in its own way. ;)
larstangmark wrote:Hehe...depends on your point of view. I like the track, but I can't help but viewing this as archeology. I want to know exactly what was on that tape (and what wasn't).
I'd also like to listen in an archeological way. But without the actual four-track tape, this is not really possible anyway. In a mix, choices have to be made. I guess the motorbike sound is taken from the tape listed in David Parker's 'Random Precision'. It was somehow intended to be somewhere in the mix. (Even though Barrett may have preferred his amateur recording.) From an archeological point of view, it's rather easy to imagine the motorbike sound not to be there. It's very brief. It starts at 7:42 and is gone at 7:54.

Maybe the entire mix would have sounded different if it was made in 1969. It's hard to listen in an archeological way when only having a 2010 mix.
For example, I think that the two mixes of 'Clowns and Jugglers' on the expanded 'Opel' don't do the recordings justice and have a cold 1980s sound. On an excerpt of two old (rough?) mixes as found on a bootleg, an acoustic guitar can be heard and the background noises (like a keyboard) are more apparent, giving the song a fairground feeling. On 'Opel', the emphasis lies on Barrett's voice and an electric guitar that gives a upfront solo that, without being buried in the noises, sticks out like a sore thumb. The guitar only version (the bonus track) sounds very empty and cold without the acoustic guitar. I think those mixes sound awful.
I think that in comparison and also from an archeological view, the mix of 'Rhamadan' has an authentic sound. Iddins and Jackson could have forced up the track with Barrett's guitar, but it sounds rather buried in the mix. Just how I think it should be. I have a hard time finding where I can hear the guitar and what exactly could be the mellotron.
larstangmark wrote:I'm sure Syd would have added more instruments to a track like "Opel" too had he decided to go further with it.
Imagine there was a sea sounds tape meant to be in 'Opel'. Wouldn't it be debatable if it wasn't included? And maybe the song was intended to end with a fade out. Listening to a mix and to multitracks are two different investigations. Unfortunately, the record market is hardly ready for releasing "Do It Yourself"-boxes, which give listeners the change to investigate and mix multitracks themselves.

Now my review of 'Rhamadan':

Having listened 'Rhamadan' about three times now, I think it sounds nice as a jazz inspired piece. Like 'Lanky part1', I think it's a bit comparable with 'Nick's Boogie'. It's a piece of music that doesn't have much structure. It starts, improvises and then ends. Just imagine 'Interstellar Overdive' without the guitar riffs at the beginning and the ending. Those riffs give a strong illusion that the piece goes somewhere, while it really doesn't. I remember reading that Barrett's Floyd used such a beginning and ending as a trick. Start a riff, go in all kinds of directions and then end with the riff.
When I began listening to 'Rhamadan', I expected a lot of weirdness and so the piece sounded boring at first. When relistening, it sounded less and less boring. I can enjoy this as much as 'Nick's Boogie'. It's an atmosheric piece and (unlike 'Nick's Boogie') it's unfinished. Just imagine what it would have been with an extra overdub.
People who expect hearing Barrett taking a lead role, will be disappointed. 'Rhamadan' is much more an effort of a group in which Barrett somewhere can be heard. I think the musicians are rather good. And if these musicians would have been Waters, Wright and Mason, I think a lot of Pink Floyd fans would instantly have found 'Rhamadan' very interesting.

The brief motorbike noise is overdubbed at a good moment. It's included at a point where little is happening, just before the piece builds up again.
I imagined 'Rhamadan' to be intended with lots of motorbike noises throughout the whole piece, running along with the music and giving a sound of an Arabian chant. That would give a connection with the title 'Rhamadan', which I now find unexplainable. However, such a sound can be made by anyone: just put up 'Rhamadan' when riding on a motorbike. :)
The brief motorbike noise sounds very much like the one in Pink Floyd's 'Atom Heart Mother': a motorbike starts and drives away. (The main difference is that the AHM-motobike sounds like a heavy motorbike: the type that can drive as fast as a car.)
It sounds like AHM simply reused a part of 'Rhamadan', but Iddins and Jackson may have been inspired by AHM. However, the sound of a motorbike itself (no matter the length) is clearly an inspiration for AHM. (Otherwise, the coincidence is very big.)

I have now heard 'Rhamadan' for the fourth time and certainly will relisten it. I think it's a nice atmopheric piece. Comparable with ambient music. I'm glad it is released.
But again, people who'd rather go for the names Barrett, Waters, Wright and Mason will not be as impressed as I am. I think the musicians who helped Barrett are very good, daring to take a lead role instead of letting Barrett do the work. Just listen to 'Rhamadan' as an idea initiated by Barrett, who has a guest role on the performance of it.

Especially for an unfinished piece, I'd say it's a rather nice experiment and very nice to listen to.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by Wolfpack »

I've edited my previous message, correcting typos and adding some clarifications. However, somehow I don't get an edit-note when I do that. So, people won't see any editing at first glance.

I'd like to add to my review:

I find the staccatos and slides of the mellotron starting at about 10:50 remarkably good. It goes on for minutes and gives the second half of 'Rhamadan' a distinctive character.
Whatever Barrett's mental state was at the time, I think he knew how to bring in some good musicians. Putting them away as just some helping session musicians doesn't do them any justice. I think the mellotron and piano player(s) is/are a nice replacement for Wright, by also adding a distinctive sound to Barrett's world. If Barrett would have had a better mental state in 1968, this could have been a group that would be a strong competition for Pink Floyd. I think 'Rhamadan' shows what Peter Jenner may have hoped for, by staying Barrett's manager. 'Rhamadan' shows what an influence Barrett had on the sound of a group musicians, and that he could have been able to start a new Pink Floyd. If only he had the mental strength for it.
For me, the release of 'Rhamadan' is a very interesting addition to the Barrett history. More than 'Lanky part 1', it shows how close he was to a new Pink Floyd.

Thumbs up for Gilmour, Iddins and Jackson, who have apparently released 'Rhamadan' in its full length. (20:14 minutes)
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by Felix Atagong »

Ramadan isn't half as bad as I expected it to be. It's a pity for those biographers who first praise AMM and Third Ear Band for their experimental music and then write that Ramadan was a failure (although they never heard it and could only rely on witnesses). It is of course a jam and going nowhere at certain points but I think that lovers of The Mars Volta can appreciate it.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by professor frogmorton »

I've only heard the itunes sample of Rhamadan and like what I heard, but am suprised at all this talk of other musicians and little Barrett involvement in Rhamadam and the other 68 backing tracks. Is there something about the instrumentation on Rhamadam that makes it evident that Barrett has little involvement, other than the fact that a 6 string guitar can hardly be heard?

The looseness of '68 recordings is, I believe, because Barrett is playing all or most of those instruments himself. He did play bass in the band Those Without as well as rythmn guitar in other pre-Floyd bands. He was a banjo player, a trained piano player, and there are photos of him in Abbey Road playing an electric piano/organ. There's also a photo of him playing a flute in Formentera. So it doesn't seem like an outlandish idea that he might be playing most of those instruments himself. He may have not felt so comfortable on a drumkit and that may be the reason all of the 68 recordings either feature congas or scant kit drumming.

Charles Mingus recorded a piano album.
David Bowie played lead guitar on the Diamond Dogs record.
David Gilmour played drums and organ on the Barrett LP.
Alexander Spence played bass, drums, guitar, sound effects, and vocs on Oar.
etc
etc

If my memory serves me, there was a check cut from EMI for a musician who was to attend one of those sessions, but the check was never cashed. I don't think there is any hard evidence of other musicians being involved in those sessions, unless some of those instruments exist on the same track in the multi-tracks tapes, and they still could have been bounced over. The Steve Took rumor seems unlikely to me, like, oh it must be Took because he played bongos with Marc Bolan and he knew Syd. Seems very circumstantial and maybe an effort by EMI to create as much interest as possible.

All of the songs from '68 feature similar instrumentation:
Electric guitar, bass, conga drums, cymbals, hi hat, maybe some shakers in Swan Lee
scant mellotron on earliest version of Swan Lee(Silas Lang)the banjo and sax is a mellotron. Mellotron on Rhamadan.
vibes on Lanky, Rhamadam, and Golden Hair

the acoustic guitar on Golden Hair and Clowns and Jugglers Jones snippet may be from later on in '69.

the Swan Lee recording was worked on over 5 different occasions in 1968 with vocal and additional guitar added in 1969, making 6 studio dates.

Late Night was developed over 3 different recording dates in 1968, with vocals and a guitar line being added la year later during the Jones sessions, making 4 dates in all.

Rhamadam was recorded on two seperate dates in 1968, the motorcycle stuff was compiled a year later in 69, making 3 total studio dates. One could assume that Syd may have played at least two instruments in the improvisation based on the fact that he worked on the song on two seperate dates in '68.

Golden Hair also was continued over 3 seperate days in 1968, later being continued in 1969 with Jones, making 4 studio dates in all.

Barrett must have been doing something with these recordings each time they were continued at the studio. It seems plausible that he was adding new instrumentation each time, to the existing guitar or rythmn tracks he'd already recorded. And maybe all by himself.

The only recordings from 68 that seem to have been made in one day according to Abbey Road logs were Lanky part1, Lanky Part 2, and Clowns and Jugglers with only guitar and vocals. Even Lanky Part 2 with congas vibes and two seperate guitar tracks might be just Syd.

The frusration of trying to do all of this by himself, or with VERY little help, must have had alot to do with why the 68 sessions seemed to end abruptly. I hesitate to use the word sloppy, but the tracks don't quite gel in the way the 67 Floyd work does, or even the later Madcap stuff from 69 with Soft Machine, Gilmour,Wilson, and Shirley playing instruments. If it's obvious to us than it must have been more obvious to him. There's still something extraordinary about these tracks though. I don't think it's a case of Barrett not having it together to lead an ensemble, but rather a case of an individual attempting to mimic an ensemble.

So, basically what I'm saying is that a 68 Barrett album augmented by other musicians would have sounded much different than the recordings that exist from 68, probably with a lot tighter drums and bass, still with lots of electric guitar and some very good songs, much closer to the sound of Apples and Oranges and Vegetable Man. It probably would have been amazing and with less congas. As far as instrumentals go, it's not easy to jam with yourself. The 68 recordings sound like they are from a capable musician trying to do just that. In mid 68 it seems Barrett was still interested in improvisational jams, something he never returned to except mildly in the 74 guitar miniatures.

By the time the Jones sessions start in 69 it seems Barrett is focusing less on his mercurial electric guitar playing and more on just getting the songs down and letting others fill them out with instrumentation, rather than trying to develop the songs from rythmn tracks to drums vocals, lead etc. That amazing guitar from 68 does seem to be an extension of the later 67 stuff with PF, and in some ways that 68 guitar work might be some of his best. It's a shame that Late Night, Clowns and Jugglers, Swan Lee, and Golden Hair have never been mixed properly. Late Night has such a remarkable backing track that cannot be heard on the Madcap version, for what reason i don't know.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by Wolfpack »

professor frogmorton wrote:The looseness of '68 recordings is, I believe, because Barrett is playing all or most of those instruments himself.
If Barrett was playing all or most of those instruments himself, Peter Jenner's memories of those days would have been very different. He certainly would have remembered Barrett turning out to be a capable, universal musician. And David Parker's 'Random Precision' would have given evidence. Page 119 mentions musicians for 30th january 1968. Jenner: "We used quite good musicians." On 'Rhamadan', the guitar, piano and vibes were all wedged simultaneously onto track 1. The percussion (bongo's and cymbal) is recorded on track 2 (14th May 1968). Page 129 mentions three musicians, who got all got paid £9 each. The fourth musician presumably being Barrett on guitar. For the overdub date (28th May 1968), three session musicians are listed. It seems that the bass was recorded on one track, while the mellotron and organ were recorded on the other remaining track.
professor frogmorton wrote:Is there something about the instrumentation on Rhamadam that makes it evident that Barrett has little involvement, other than the fact that a 6 string guitar can hardly be heard?
Evidence on remaining paperwork, investigated by David Parker. And memories by Peter Jenner.
professor frogmorton wrote:The looseness of '68 recordings is, I believe, because Barrett is playing all or most of those instruments himself.
The looseness is because Barrett was chaotic, making it difficult for other musicians to cope with that.

For 21th May 1968, page 129 mentions the hire of an electric guitar. Barrett had no electric guitar! That's how lost he was at the time.
professor frogmorton wrote:He did play bass in the band Those Without as well as rythmn guitar in other pre-Floyd bands. He was a banjo player, a trained piano player, and there are photos of him in Abbey Road playing an electric piano/organ. There's also a photo of him playing a flute in Formentera.
His bass playing was years before that. Did he practice since then? And there may be a reason why he decided to go for guitar instead.
The only Barrett-connected banjo I've heard is in an early mix of the backing track for 'Swan Lee'. And, at least to me, it sounds disjointed. As if the banjo player doesn't follow the rhythm.
The fact that Barrett is photographed behind an organ, doesn't mean he was playing it properly.
I've never heard any flute on Barrett's solo recordings. And the fact that he is photographed with a flute, doesn't mean he could play it well.
professor frogmorton wrote:So it doesn't seem like an outlandish idea that he might be playing most of those instruments himself.
The idea is only interesting as hypothesis, but evidence is against it. I think it's mostly wishful thinking, not accepting that Barrett was terribly falling apart since 1967. And it took me a long time before I myself could accept it. There was really a disaster going on.
In the past, I blamed Pink Floyd for not being able to understand Barrett and thereby ruining his musical career. If only THEY would have... (etc etc etc). But the problem really was Barrett, Barrett and Barrett. He couldn't cope with being a professional musician. Being a professional musician is very different from doing whatever you like. And in case of Barrett, doing whatever he liked, often meant doing nothing.
professor frogmorton wrote:If my memory serves me, there was a check cut from EMI for a musician who was to attend one of those sessions, but the check was never cashed.
But on page 129, Parker mentions that musicians were paid.
One uncashed check, mentioned on page 127, doesn't mean there were no session musicians during the sessions. And maybe Barrett took some amateur people with him at that time.
professor frogmorton wrote:I don't think there is any hard evidence of other musicians being involved in those sessions, unless some of those instruments exist on the same track in the multi-tracks tapes, and they still could have been bounced over.
Instruments do exist on the same track in the multi-tracks tapes. And they were not bounced over.
professor frogmorton wrote:The Steve Took rumor seems unlikely to me, like, oh it must be Took because he played bongos with Marc Bolan and he knew Syd. Seems very circumstantial and maybe an effort by EMI to create as much interest as possible.
Is it a complot? :) Barrett playing bongo's in a studio is most unlikely. I'd go for the Steve Took rumor. (Or even a Ringo Starr or Keith Moon rumor.)
professor frogmorton wrote:All of the songs from '68 feature similar instrumentation:
Electric guitar, bass, conga drums, cymbals, hi hat, maybe some shakers in Swan Lee
scant mellotron on earliest version of Swan Lee(Silas Lang)the banjo and sax is a mellotron. Mellotron on Rhamadan.
vibes on Lanky, Rhamadam, and Golden Hair
Most or all played by Mr. Barrett the One Man Orchestra?
professor frogmorton wrote:the Swan Lee recording was worked on over 5 different occasions in 1968 with vocal and additional guitar added in 1969, making 6 studio dates.

Late Night was developed over 3 different recording dates in 1968, with vocals and a guitar line being added la year later during the Jones sessions, making 4 dates in all.

Rhamadam was recorded on two seperate dates in 1968, the motorcycle stuff was compiled a year later in 69, making 3 total studio dates. One could assume that Syd may have played at least two instruments in the improvisation based on the fact that he worked on the song on two seperate dates in '68.

Golden Hair also was continued over 3 seperate days in 1968, later being continued in 1969 with Jones, making 4 studio dates in all.
This mostly proofs how disastrous the sessions were, taking so much time to record some songs. Remember that we are talking about the professional music business and an artist in his early years. I'm surprised that he got so much time before the project ended.
professor frogmorton wrote:Barrett must have been doing something with these recordings each time they were continued at the studio. It seems plausible that he was adding new instrumentation each time, to the existing guitar or rythmn tracks he'd already recorded. And maybe all by himself.
Barrett mostly was chaotic. People around him tried their best to catch whatever they could get out of him. That is why the project took so long.
professor frogmorton wrote:The only recordings from 68 that seem to have been made in one day according to Abbey Road logs were Lanky part1, Lanky Part 2, and Clowns and Jugglers with only guitar and vocals.
How was Barrett able to do all the 'Lanky Part 1' overdubs in one session, in four hours, still having time for some other titles? What made him so productive, suddenly? Answer is that here were other musicians playing on 'Lanky'.
'Clowns and Jugglers' is from a different session.
professor frogmorton wrote:Even Lanky Part 2 with congas vibes and two seperate guitar tracks might be just Syd.
This is the first time I read about 'Lanky Part 2' having more than two tracks of conga's. ;)
professor frogmorton wrote:The frusration of trying to do all of this by himself, or with VERY little help, must have had alot to do with why the 68 sessions seemed to end abruptly.
Barrett got lots of help during the 1968 sessions. Lots of help. And also in 1969 and 1970. It was only in 1974 that there were no session musicians. Possibly because the sessions ended before anyone was hired.
At least in 1968, Barrett had difficulty coming to terms with the fact that he left Pink Floyd and having a solo career. According to Jenner. (Parker, page 124) But that doesn't mean he was playing all alone.
professor frogmorton wrote:So, basically what I'm saying is that a 68 Barrett album augmented by other musicians would have sounded much different than the recordings that exist from 68, probably with a lot tighter drums and bass, still with lots of electric guitar and some very good songs, much closer to the sound of Apples and Oranges and Vegetable Man.
The 1968 recordings would have been tighther without Barrett playing on them. Just like Pink Floyd. It's hard for even the best musician, to play along with someone who's chaotic and without control.
professor frogmorton wrote:Late Night has such a remarkable backing track that cannot be heard on the Madcap version, for what reason i don't know.
A mix of the instrumental backing track is released as bonus track on 'Opel'.

Sorry if I sound a bit cynical. It took me a lot of time to answer your message. It seems to me that I'm writing to one of the wishful thinkers, who don't want to accept that Barrett fell apart in a terrible way. In the past, I was a wishful thinker myself. However, research proves that Barrett became very difficult to work with. Some people blame the people around Barrett, which I now think is very, very, very unfair. They tried the best they could, as can be heard on 'Rhamadan'. Blaming Pink Floyd also is unfair, because at least Gilmour and Wright tried their best to keep Barrett going. If Barrett would have been kicked out of another band than Pink Floyd, he may not have got any help at all.
Barrett was giving musicians around him a very hard time. And he gave himself a hard time. That's why he quit. Only the fact that he decided to leave the music business, proves that he wasn't entirely insane. It was his only way to save his health from further detoriation.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by professor frogmorton »

I'm sorry that Wolfpack took my post personally. I'm not a "wishful thinker" nor is there anything in my post "blaming" anyone for Barrett's obvious psychological distress that began in a big way in mid 1967. I just think it's haphazard to assume that all other instruments except 6string guitar appearing on the 1968 recordings must have been played by other people. Historical assumptions are often propagated whether correct or incorrect.

Barrett's problems, however great they may have been, did not render him incapable of playing music reasonably well. Just listen to the BBC sessions recorded with Pink Floyd on December 20 1967. They are very good live performances with some exact details in the guitar work that mimic the earlier studio recordings of Scream Thy Last Scream, Jugband Blues, and Vegetable Man. Recorded near the time of Barrett's diastrous Christmas on Earth show with Pink Floyd. So, even if one day Barrett could not strum a guitar at a live show or carry on a conversation coherently, it seems that the next day he could duplicate "his songs" very accurately regardless of his state of mind. I'm not debating Barrett's mental health, I think most agree that Barrett was hard to deal with personally from mid 67 onward, but this fact doesn't render him incapable musically. Gilmour has stated that the variation in Barrett's songs were deliberate. "He'd never do a song the same twice, I think quite deliberately." It would be hard to play along with for sure.

As far as Barrett's abilities on other instruments...He was classically trained early on...the dude won a prize as a kid playing piano at a recital, which proves nothing except his aptitude for various musical instruments as an adolescent.

Barrett spent two years playing the bass guitar right up until he joined Waters in the Abdabs(Pink Floyd).

in Barrett's own words from Beat Instrumental October 1967, guitarist of the month
"(Barrett) launched out on a banjo. 'I'm not quite sure why,' he says, 'it just seemed a good idea at the time. I picked it up in a second-hand shop and plunked away quite happily for about six months. Then I decided to get a guitar. The first one was a #12 Hofner acoustic which I kept for a year.... And some of our material was original, but mostly we stuck to Shadows' instrumentals and a few American songs. 'Eventually the group dissolved and I moved into the blues field, this time playing bass. It was another Hofner, and I played that for a couple of years. One day I met a guy called Roger Waters who suggested that when I come up to a London Art School we get together and form a group. This I did, and became a member of the 'Abdabs'. I had to buy another guitar because Roger played bass, a Rickenbacker, and we didn't want a group with two bass players. So I changed guitars, and we started doing the pub scene."

So, did he deteriorate drastically in his playing abilities during the 6 months following that BBC session? Maybe or maybe not. It's really impossible for us to know. We can only speculate. That '68 guitarwork is pretty sharp in my estimation.
Wolfpack wrote: Just listen to 'Rhamadan' as an idea initiated by Barrett, who has a guest role on the performance of it.
I've not stated declaratively that there were absolutely no other musicians involved, but to my ears and based on the many times most all of these recordings were continued in the studio, it seems more likely to me that Barrett played some instruments in addition to guitar, and POSSIBLY most or even all of the other instruments on some '68 songs. I wouldn't minimize his role to being only electric guitar in these recordings.

The banjo and sax in Silas Lang are said to have been played on the Mellotron, which makes sense to my ears, the notes do sound mechanical without the nuances associated with actual playing of those instruments. Likely Syd following through on his idea or suggestion to the PF to add musicians playing those instruments to their band line-up. He could at least plod away on Mellotron.

And if that bass player from Rhamadam is also on Swan Lee or Late Night, than they showed up at several different dates to help out, which is possible, but there are no records of that. OR Syd is playing bass. Lost in the mists of time. It's suprising that someone hasn't come forward about it or at least people close to Syd would seemingly have had second hand information on who these "musicians" were that showed up like clockwork at numerous recording dates in 1968 to help Barrett record. Gilmour might be a good person to ask. I think it's likely that someone maybe helped out with SOME percussion perhaps, but the bass and drums and vibes TO ME, do not sound like they are played by someone specializing in those particular instruments. Maybe the additional "musician" or "musicians" had contractual obligations with a record company to record exclusively elsewhere or were just random friends. I really don't know.
Wolfpack wrote:
professor frogmorton wrote:
The Steve Took rumor seems unlikely to me, like, oh it must be Took because he played bongos with Marc Bolan and he knew Syd. Seems very circumstantial and maybe an effort by EMI to create as much interest as possible.

Is it a complot? Barrett playing bongo's in a studio is most unlikely. I'd go for the Steve Took rumor. (Or even a Ringo Starr or Keith Moon rumor.)


No CommiePLot there, it's possible it was Took, just as possible as it being Ringo Starr as you mention. But a helpful way to stir up buzz, the same way the people releasing Took's private recording's claim Barrett himself is on a few Took tracks. Unlikely and very hard to substantiate. Or the way Twink credited his song Psychedlic Punkeroo to (A. Syd) and wrote Enter the Diamond at the same time, creating rumor, or the way people think Mick Rock photographed the cover of Madcap Laughs, when it was actually Storm Thorgerson. But a helpful way to stir up buzz nonetheless. The whole Tyrannosarus Rex tie-in. Evil John Peel must be behind this.
Who can't play the conga drum?

The Barrett in "guest role" thing seems unlikely to me, but it's okay to disagree. We probably agree on alot of other things.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by snifferdog »

I've listened to it a few times and I think Meh is the word I was looking for.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by Stephen »

I was surprised that I actually liked it more than I imagined I would. Parts of it had a Krautrock feel to them I thought.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by my breakfast. »

So far so freeform....I'm about 8:35 in.... sometimes my band gets this freeform in rehearsals.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

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my breakfast. wrote:So far so freeform....I'm about 8:35 in.... sometimes my band gets this freeform in rehearsals.
what is your band?
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

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mastaflatch wrote:
my breakfast. wrote:So far so freeform....I'm about 8:35 in.... sometimes my band gets this freeform in rehearsals.
what is your band?
A shitty hipster band playing to a bunch of elitist over-educated under employed life-skill-devoid little rich kids in Edinburgh is the short answer. If you have never skim-read the wikipedia page about Marx and got a semi, have some sort of eating disorder, have rich parents in the process of a messy divorce or have never listened to a band purely to boast about listening to said band you will not like us. Period.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by mastaflatch »

alright, let me rephrase this: do you have a website or a myspace page where i can listen to said shitty hipster band playing to a bunch of elitist over-educated under employed life-skill-devoid little rich kids in Edinburgh is the short answer. If you have never skim-read the wikipedia page about Marx and got a semi, have some sort of eating disorder, have rich parents in the process of a messy divorce or have never listened to a band purely to boast about listening to said band you will not like us. Period?
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by J Ed »

I acquired a research copy of this, and despite some of the prerelease speculation think its pretty good
I mean I can deal with random, mid70s King Crimson jams, Wyatt era Soft Machine, Bitches Brew era Miles, some of the more abstract Grateful Dead passages ... ok its more random than even any of that stuff but Im glad to get a chance to listen to it
its a 20 minute previously unreleased Syd Barrett instrumental for freakin out loud! how can I not have it looping over and over on my computer?

so I want to do the right thing and pay for my pleasure, but like my fellow HogTownian I havent seen the album in stores yet, and even when it does get released in Canada they dont seem to be making it easy for me ... its not the reissued tracks Id be buying this for

so how does the legal download work? will they make me enter private information for marketing purposes, ie email or credit card #? Im not into that scene, I want to pay cash at the store and get the music Ive paid for with no further obligations

and what format is this? is it an itune and what the blazes does a pc user do with an itune? if its an mp3 what is the bitrate? my research copy is 256kbps
dare I hope its a flac or some such lossless format? Robert Fripps dgm site sells flac downloads, youd think snooty audiosnobs like the Floyd would stand for no less but as I recall Rogers download only single several years ago was in some lo bitrate streaming format

dadgum it if they just put it out on vinyl with some previously released filler on the bside, theyd have my money already
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by Wolfpack »

professor frogmorton wrote:I'm sorry that Wolfpack took my post personally.
I apologize if it looks that way. It's not my intention to sound personal.
About wishful thinking: If Barrett really was as active as you describe, at least Peter Jenner certainly would have remembered it.
professor frogmorton wrote:I just think it's haphazard to assume that all other instruments except 6string guitar appearing on the 1968 recordings must have been played by other people. Historical assumptions are often propagated whether correct or incorrect.
It's as haphazard to assume that all other instruments including six-string guitar appearing on the 1968 recordings must have been played by Barrett. ;)
Memories of people who have been there and the remaining paperwork show that Barrett was helped by musicians. The only mystery is what their names are.
professor frogmorton wrote:Barrett's problems, however great they may have been, did not render him incapable of playing music reasonably well. Just listen to the BBC sessions recorded with Pink Floyd on December 20 1967. They are very good live performances with some exact details in the guitar work that mimic the earlier studio recordings of Scream Thy Last Scream, Jugband Blues, and Vegetable Man.
That was still within Pink Floyd. Those are studio recordings. Who knows how many takes it took to get them right.
And the quality of the BBC session with 'Vegetable Man' only is really good in comparison with the stories about Barrett not being capable to play. I think the BBC 'Vegetable Man' sounds a bit chaotic, while the BBC 'Scream Thy Last Scream' sounds a bit lame. For example, in STLS, Barrett's solo seems to go wrong. And it's not that difficult a solo. I think the recordings are good enough for release, but in the historical light that Pink Floyd had troubles at the time.
In 1968, Barrett had difficulty coming to terms with the fact that he left Pink Floyd and having a solo career. According to Jenner. (Parker, page 124)
professor frogmorton wrote:Gilmour has stated that the variation in Barrett's songs were deliberate. "He'd never do a song the same twice, I think quite deliberately." It would be hard to play along with for sure.
Gilmour thinks it was deliberate. Can he be sure? Maybe Barrett still was a great improviser, while having lost the capability of playing the same tune twice. The fact that musicians found it hard to play along, would otherwise mean that Barrett deliberately gave them a hard time.
professor frogmorton wrote:As far as Barrett's abilities on other instruments...He was classically trained early on...the dude won a prize as a kid playing piano at a recital, which proves nothing except his aptitude for various musical instruments as an adolescent.

Barrett spent two years playing the bass guitar right up until he joined Waters in the Abdabs(Pink Floyd).
That was years before 1968. Did Barrett practice interim? His guitar playing deteriorated between 1967 and 1969. Barrett did his best guitar work on 'The Piper'. After that, it went downhill. (Despite still being interesting!)
professor frogmorton wrote:So, did he deteriorate drastically in his playing abilities during the 6 months following that BBC session? Maybe or maybe not. It's really impossible for us to know. We can only speculate. That '68 guitarwork is pretty sharp in my estimation.
There's little speculation. Enough 1968 recordings have been released to prove that Barrett's guitar work was less sharp as during 'The Piper'. Barrett keeps on being interesting, that's how brilliant he was, but his guitar work is not as inventive as on 'The Piper' and 'See Emily Play'.
professor frogmorton wrote:
Wolfpack wrote:Just listen to 'Rhamadan' as an idea initiated by Barrett, who has a guest role on the performance of it.
I've not stated declaratively that there were absolutely no other musicians involved, but to my ears and based on the many times most all of these recordings were continued in the studio, it seems more likely to me that Barrett played some instruments in addition to guitar, and POSSIBLY most or even all of the other instruments on some '68 songs. I wouldn't minimize his role to being only electric guitar in these recordings.
The "many times most all of these recordings were continued in the studio", only prove that they were making little progress.
And certainly, Barrett didn't do "all of the other instruments". And if you think there are some songs on which he did, name them. Maybe the 1968 'Clowns and Jugglers', on which only guitar is backing him up.
professor frogmorton wrote:The banjo and sax in Silas Lang are said to have been played on the Mellotron, which makes sense to my ears, the notes do sound mechanical without the nuances associated with actual playing of those instruments. Likely Syd following through on his idea or suggestion to the PF to add musicians playing those instruments to their band line-up. He could at least plod away on Mellotron.
Is the Mellotron that good in imitating a saxophone? And if so, would Barrett be able to play it that well?
If Barrett was following through on his idea or suggestion to the PF to add musicians playing those instruments, then he could just have... added musicians playing those instruments.
Why would Barrett be a keyboard player, when he had session musicians to do the job?
professor frogmorton wrote:And if that bass player from Rhamadam is also on Swan Lee or Late Night, than they showed up at several different dates to help out, which is possible, but there are no records of that. OR Syd is playing bass. Lost in the mists of time.
And why wouldn't that bass player have showed up at several different dates to help out? It's not only possible, it is likely that he did.
Barrett would have been a very good bass player if he did those overdubs. Especially for the terrible state he was in. People certainly would have remembered him as that bass player. It certainly would have survived the mist of time.
Especially thanks to people like David Parker, there's little mystery around Barrett anymore. Parker has thoroughly interviewed people who were present during those sessions. And those people say the sessions were going nowhere.
professor frogmorton wrote:It's suprising that someone hasn't come forward about it or at least people close to Syd would seemingly have had second hand information on who these "musicians" were that showed up like clockwork at numerous recording dates in 1968 to help Barrett record. Gilmour might be a good person to ask.
Gilmour was busy with Pink Floyd. The fact that people have little memory about those sessions, only proves how forgettable they were.
professor frogmorton wrote:I think it's likely that someone maybe helped out with SOME percussion perhaps, but the bass and drums and vibes TO ME, do not sound like they are played by someone specializing in those particular instruments. Maybe the additional "musician" or "musicians" had contractual obligations with a record company to record exclusively elsewhere or were just random friends. I really don't know.
The bass, drum and vibes players were restricted by Barrett's input. They couldn't just take the main role. Those musicians were hired to give Barrett a backing, not to make a record for themselves. They could have played better if Barrett would have played better.
professor frogmorton wrote:
Wolfpack wrote:Is it a complot? Barrett playing bongo's in a studio is most unlikely. I'd go for the Steve Took rumor. (Or even a Ringo Starr or Keith Moon rumor.)

No CommiePLot there, it's possible it was Took, just as possible as it being Ringo Starr as you mention.
I didn't write it's "as possible as it being Ringo Starr". I wrote: "even a Ringo Starr [...] rumor".
professor frogmorton wrote:But a helpful way to stir up buzz, the same way the people releasing Took's private recording's claim Barrett himself is on a few Took tracks. Unlikely and very hard to substantiate.
Why would it be unlikely that Barrett himself is on a few Took tracks? Apparently, they knew each other. And Barrett was more or less active up to his 1974 sessions. In 1972, he played in Stars.
professor frogmorton wrote:The whole Tyrannosarus Rex tie-in. Evil John Peel must be behind this.
Who can't play the conga drum?
I think this gets a bit ridiculous. :shock: ;)
professor frogmorton wrote:The Barrett in "guest role" thing seems unlikely to me, but it's okay to disagree. We probably agree on alot of other things.
Just listen to 'Rhamadan'. Maybe Evil Gilmour erased all the great Barrett solos, leaving only some minor guitar work in the jam? And maybe, surprisingly, no one seems to recall that Barrett returned to being a bass player? A better bass player than the guitar player he was in 1968?

Certainly, we can agree to disagree. But I think it's interesting to discuss matters like these. I think you're creating a myth.
I think it's important that at least the hypothesis of Barrett being more active is given, but it's easy to refute it. Maybe Barrett did a little more than only guitar in 1968, but that would be very little. I think that for example in 'Rhamadan', Barrett really only does the guitar. As far as any guitar can be heard. The biggest surprise of 'Rhamadan' is to hear how much good help Barrett got, and how little he did with it.
J Ed wrote:so how does the legal download work? will they make me enter private information for marketing purposes, ie email or credit card #? Im not into that scene, I want to pay cash at the store and get the music Ive paid for with no further obligations
You have to give name and address.
J Ed wrote:and what format is this? is it an itune and what the blazes does a pc user do with an itune? if its an mp3 what is the bitrate? my research copy is 256kbps
192kbps, stereo.
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Re: Rhamadam - How good is it ?

Post by my breakfast. »

Yawn. Its a noisy freeform jam. The emperor is naked @ 192kb/s .mp3.