If Syd had been picked up that day.

All discussion related to Roger Keith (Syd) Barrett.
spainboy
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If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by spainboy »

Does anyone wonder where Floyd would be today had Syd had been picked up that day,he started taking control of his drugs and started to focus again on being the leader of the now 5 piece Floyd.?. Would they be as big and as famous as they are today? Would we have the likes of The Wall in existance today or would the band had faded away in the late 60's?
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by flippikat »

spainboy wrote:Does anyone wonder where Floyd would be today had Syd had been picked up that day,he started taking control of his drugs and started to focus again on being the leader of the now 5 piece Floyd.?. Would they be as big and as famous as they are today? Would we have the likes of The Wall in existance today or would the band had faded away in the late 60's?
You mean that concert in early 1968 where they just decided not to bother picking him up on the way to the gig?

I think the chance of 'fixing' the working relationship with Syd was well gone by then.

At an outside chance they *may* have been able to leave Syd as a stay-at-home songwriter.. just as Brian Wilson was for the Beach Boys. By all accounts this was an option, but I'm not sure how strongly they tried to make that work.

From what I can gather, they still rehearsed with Syd - which just added to the tension.. especially when he put forward songs like 'have you got it yet?'.

A better way may have been just to ask Syd to demo tunes with an acoustic, and have the rest of the band arrange them on their own (ie record all the instruments & vocals without Syd present - get David Gilmour in for the guitar parts & have Rick singing the songs).

Hardly the best solution, but probably the most workable way to keep Syd's songwriting in Pink Floyd at that point?

The only other solution would be for Pink Floyd to overdub their parts directly onto Syd's demos - maybe including the odd overdub by Syd himself.

Very tricky with the technology at the time, and it produces mixed results depending on the standard of the demo. It'd be a near impossible challenge for ANY band to overdub onto 'if it's in you" - but recording the song from scratch & smoothing out the structure it MIGHT be salvageable.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by Bigmanpigman »

I know there are many Syd fans on here who will probably disagree with me, but I have always thought he was very much 'of his time'. He showed himself capable of writing both three minute singles and also album tracks with more depth, and the other band members were totally reliant upon him to come up with the goods in those early days. But I sometimes wonder if tracks like 'Arnold Lane' and 'Bike' were little more than novelty ditties. Or was he just taking the piss out of the whole situation? Regardless of that, the reason The Floyd became the universal force of nature they were was down to some serious hard work by the remaining band members along with Dave, combined with the sheer focus and drive of Roger. And the creative input of Rick should never be under-estimated. I feel that the 'Syd' version of Floyd would have remained an underground type band with a small hardcore following. But in reality would Syd and Roger have got along long term in the same band......Roger being Roger? Somehow I seriously doubt that.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by my breakfast. »

What if Cliff hadn't died in the crash and they fired Lars?
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by Wolfpack »

Bigmanpigman wrote:I know there are many Syd fans on here who will probably disagree with me, but I have always thought he was very much 'of his time'.
I agree. I think the same counts for Kurt Cobain, of Nirvana.
Bigmanpigman wrote:But I sometimes wonder if tracks like 'Arnold Lane' and 'Bike' were little more than novelty ditties. Or was he just taking the piss out of the whole situation?
I disagree about the "novelty ditties". Unless the Beatles album 'Sgt. Pepper' is also a novelty ditty.
I think that the songs are timeless compositions, but more of the same would get boring after some years. Just like The Beatles went on to a different sound, on 'The White Album' and 'Abbey Road', Barrett would also have needed to develop himself. Just like Kurt Cobain would have needed to develop himself. However, Barrett and Cobain didn't develop themselves. Rather the contrary. Their songs are timeless, but most of them are in the same style.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by flippikat »

Wolfpack wrote:
Bigmanpigman wrote:But I sometimes wonder if tracks like 'Arnold Lane' and 'Bike' were little more than novelty ditties. Or was he just taking the piss out of the whole situation?
I disagree about the "novelty ditties". Unless the Beatles album 'Sgt. Pepper' is also a novelty ditty.
I think that the songs are timeless compositions, but more of the same would get boring after some years. Just like The Beatles went on to a different sound, on 'The White Album' and 'Abbey Road', Barrett would also have needed to develop himself. Just like Kurt Cobain would have needed to develop himself. However, Barrett and Cobain didn't develop themselves. Rather the contrary. Their songs are timeless, but most of them are in the same style.
I think there were signs that Barrett was trying to develop - actually more like regressing or going back to basics - a few acoustic songs, some mid-tempo toe-tappers, the odd bluesy song.

One song that would've been a progression was Opel. In my mind I've always imagined a full band version of it with orchestra overdubbed, and it would've been a real breakthrough - a year or so ahead of Atom Heart Mother.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by Wolfpack »

flippikat wrote:One song that would've been a progression was Opel. In my mind I've always imagined a full band version of it with orchestra overdubbed, and it would've been a real breakthrough - a year or so ahead of Atom Heart Mother.
Here's a cover version of 'Opel', with overdubs that sound a bit like 'Astronomy Domine' and 'Arnold Layne':

RPWL - OPEL (Syd Barrett cover)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWO0eI1lDds
Syd Barrett cover by German progressive rock band RPWL.

Do those sound effects mean a space rocket or a submarine?

A band named 'Full Dimensional' also made a cover of 'Opel', including overdubs, more than 10 years ago. That version is more faithful, by keeping the "I'm trying" at the end of the song. Unfortunately, I can't find this on internet.
I'm surprised that no one has made overdubs onto Barrett's version itself.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by rememberaday »

flippikat wrote:Very tricky with the technology at the time, and it produces mixed results depending on the standard of the demo. It'd be a near impossible challenge for ANY band to overdub onto 'if it's in you" - but recording the song from scratch & smoothing out the structure it MIGHT be salvageable.
I don't know about that. I mean, Roger Waters tried to write Julia Dream in a bit Syd-ish way, but it couldn't be quite pulled off. Of course it would be different in this case where Syd would have written songs, but I can't really imagine his whimsy being sung by a different voice.
Bigmanpigman wrote:I feel that the 'Syd' version of Floyd would have remained an underground type band with a small hardcore following.
I don't agree with you. Syd and Floyd were only underground in 1966 and until March '67, after which they really started making headlines. Piper was #6 on charts, and Syd was lauded by many out famous contemporaries then, so it's had to really imagine they'd remain underground.
flippikat wrote:I think there were signs that Barrett was trying to develop - actually more like regressing or going back to basics - a few acoustic songs, some mid-tempo toe-tappers, the odd bluesy song.
Maybe the Madcap stuff concurs with your statements, but I can't see how Scream Thy Last Scream or Jugband Blues (which isn't blues) or Vegetable Man could be seen as "regressing". Heck, Vegetable Man even sounds like some primitive punk stuff. Maybe his songs were becoming more introverted, but I find songs like Vegetable Man pretty interesting sound-wise, considering it was just '67 then.

Though, of course, to end with a stark contrast, I feel that Syd and Floyd were in no shape to play, let even record, together by then.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by Wolfpack »

rememberaday wrote:Maybe the Madcap stuff concurs with your statements, but I can't see how Scream Thy Last Scream or Jugband Blues (which isn't blues) or Vegetable Man could be seen as "regressing". Heck, Vegetable Man even sounds like some primitive punk stuff. Maybe his songs were becoming more introverted, but I find songs like Vegetable Man pretty interesting sound-wise, considering it was just '67 then.
The "punk" and "becoming more introverted" is the regression. The chord scheme of 'Vegetable Man' is a regression on its own. Not to mention the lyrics, which complain about finding no "place for me".
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by sydmundfloyd »

Wolfpack wrote:Unless the Beatles album 'Sgt. Pepper' is also a novelty ditty.
I think that the songs are timeless compositions, but more of the same would get boring after some years.
For all of its popularity upon release, the entire Pepper album is regarded by many, myself absolutely included, as the Beatles' least timeless albums, and most dated.

Certainly melodically, it is among their very worst albums. Most of the songs are quite monotonous musically, with very few interesting chord changes, the bread and butter of good pop music. (Yes, I know that good blues has very few chord changes, but this is not blues.)

Take the following songs with compelling chord changes:

She Loves You
Yesterday
She Said She Said
Dear Prudence
Something

I don't think one can find three songs on Pepper with similarly interesting chord progressions. If you can, name me a song from it, and show me the chord progressions. Certainly most of the songs, such as Getting Better, have very little chord "movement".
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by sydmundfloyd »

spainboy wrote:Does anyone wonder where Floyd would be today had Syd had been picked up that day,he started taking control of his drugs and started to focus again on being the leader of the now 5 piece Floyd.?
Certainly the question of how a 5-member Pink Floyd with a rehabilitated Syd would have fared is an interesting and worthy question.

However, the OP has combined this with another question: what if Syd would have been picked up that day. It sounds like the OP is suggesting that picking Syd up that day would have turned things around. All of the evidence is to the contrary: Syd had been a basketcase for months. There is no reason to believe that Syd would have changed if they would have picked him up that day.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by Wolfpack »

sydmundfloyd wrote:the OP
What is "the OP"?

I think Barrett's talent was great, but limited to blues and psychedelica. Waters was able to give Pink Floyd philosophical and political content, after the flower power was over.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by rememberaday »

OP stands for Opening Post, I believe.

Syd was a much better lyricist than Roger Waters, though Waters' lyrics may be more accessible as they are pretty much spelt out and significantly less poetic most of the time.
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Re: If Syd had been picked up that day.

Post by Wolfpack »

rememberaday wrote:Syd was a much better lyricist than Roger Waters, though Waters' lyrics may be more accessible as they are pretty much spelt out and significantly less poetic most of the time.
Barrett was a much better psychedelic lyricist than Waters. Barrett rarily showed being capable to write songs with a clear meaning. The exceptions are 'Bob Dylan Blues', 'Vegetable Man' and some parts of 'Jugband Blues'.
Waters, with his "two lost souls swimming in a fishbowl", is capable to write in Barrett's style. Better than Barrett can write lyrics in Waters's style.

I think it's the same with the guitar playing. Barrett had lots of inspiration, but Gilmour is capable to do more styles and to play consistent.

In recent years I've began to think that Barrett's days in Pink Floyd were numbered from the beginning. I think his breakdown might also have been caused by having used most of his inspiration for two hit singles and 'The Piper'. A lot of later inspiration seem to have come from that breakdown, with songs like 'Jugband Blues' and 'Octopus'.
Last edited by Wolfpack on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.