Pink Floyd - The Wall

Discussions about Pink Floyd and Solo Official Album CDs and DVDs.

Rate This Album

5 - Best
69
55%
4
30
24%
3
14
11%
2
5
4%
1 - Worst
7
6%
 
Total votes: 125

ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

space triangle wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:13 pmIn the case of Pink Floyd it's not ridiculous. Not at all.
And A Momentary Lapse of Reason has sold more than twice as many copies as The Final Cut, so spouting these statistics isn't helping your argument.

I'm not saying Roger Waters isn't great - I've been enjoying The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking for nearly 25 years, for chrissake. But I think it's hilarious that people like to compare the post-Waters Floyd albums to Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, and The Wall, because none of Roger's solo albums look good next to those, either.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:24 am He definitely should be credited with "Hey You", since the signature arpeggio throughout the song is based on a guitar tuning that Gilmour accidentally created.
Hmm.... An arpeggio and tuning sounds like arrangement to me. That wouldn't deserve a writing credit. Did Dave change chords or melody for that song?

Though, even if it is an arrangement touch, it shows how important Dave was in making TW what it is.
"I have said it before and I shall continue to say how hard I find it to understand the way royalties work. Having watched the transformation of Roger’s angst into something that Animals and The Wall albums have become, David and the others deserve more acknowledgement. And these are not just the words of a devoted wife. “Comfortably Numb” symbolically represented the release of all the tensions built in that album. Without it, we certainly would have gone down under the weight of the stone. Needless to say, David and Rick’s intuitiveness as musicians influenced the whole album.
There is songwriting and arrangement. The two are different.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Annoying Twit wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:09 pm Hmm.... An arpeggio and tuning sounds like arrangement to me. That wouldn't deserve a writing credit. Did Dave change chords or melody for that song?

There is songwriting and arrangement. The two are different.
That is correct. Now, if the song had been an instrumental, that arpeggio would be the melody, but the music for songs with vocals is copyrighted based on who wrote the vocal melody. But the number of earlier Floyd tracks that give credit to all four members shows that Roger previously acknowledged more of their contributions. The same goes for "Us and Them" and the arpeggios Dave plays over Rick's chords. He plays a similar arpeggio on "Comfortably Numb" with the same tuning, and Michael Kamen's string arrangements follow that arpeggio. Roger's contribution to "Comfortably Numb" really boils down to rewriting the lyrics over and over until he eventually whittled it down into something his production think tank approved of - and then he wanted to leave it off the album anyway!
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:32 pmAnd A Momentary Lapse of Reason has sold more than twice as many copies as The Final Cut.
Let me explain to you why: When The Final Cut was released, it quickly spreads rumours the album is quite a weak. And also that the album was actually more like Roger Waters' solo album, and not Pink Floyd at all. As a result, TFC sales were very poor if we consider the Pink Floyd standards. On the other hand, when it comes to a relatively large sales of the A Momentary Lapse of Reason album, the primary reason is the conflict of the Pink Floyd members 1985-1986. When their conflict was at its peak, the newspapers suddenly became full of the articles writing about the band. The pictures of Water or Gilmour appeared suddenly in all the newspapers. Not just music newspapers. A ten days could not pass without the newspapers bringing a articles about the Pink Fkoyd conflict. All this aroused the interest of many people (even the new young generation) for Pink Floyd. This greatly contributed to the popularity and sales of A Momentary Lapse of Reason 1987. The old rule says: Every publicity is good, even the bad publicity.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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space triangle wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:30 pmThe old rule says: Every publicity is good, even the bad publicity.
space triangle wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:30 pmWhen The Final Cut was released, it quickly spreads rumours the album is quite a weak. And also that the album was actually more like Roger Waters' solo album, and not Pink Floyd at all.
WTF, mate?

Rolling Stone's Kurt Loder gave it five stars when it came out, opening his review with "This may be art rock’s crowning masterpiece..." This is the same guy who would soon give The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking "rock bottom one star." No one knew Rick Wright had left the band until The Final Cut was physically available - even at the premiere of the short film for the album, they gave a phony excuse for Rick's absence. Many other publications did give it less flattering reviews, but none of them were as widely circulated as Rolling Stone. It is a very polarizing record - people either really like it, or they absolutely hate it. But to say that "rumors" deterred Pink Floyd fans - particularly all of those many, many people that bought copies of The Wall - on the grounds that it was really a Roger Waters solo album, is especially far-fetched considering how many of them didn't know who he was, as he painfully found out a year later. No amount of promotion or publicity would have helped The Final Cut - the average music listener genuinely does not enjoy it. And if we're not counting their opinion, then all of your sales statistics are irrelevant.

"All that media stuff is all very irrelevant. If people come to a concert and they don't like it, they don't come again." - Roger Waters, 1972
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by space triangle »

^^^

Yes I know that Rolling Stone's Kurt Loder gave TFC five stars. The same Rolling Stone who gave the Wish You Were Here album two or three stars out pf five, if I remeber corectly. :lol: Calling Shine On You Crazy Diamond a tedious and overlong piece of music.
Btw, another thing affected the poor sales of TFC. was the emergence of new modern Pop music. The new times were coming, and very few had a desire to listen to songs about Roger’s dad on TFC. Heck, even Gilmour joined the 'new times' and started participating in the music quizzes on the TV. :lol:
The new electronic Pop music was advancing a very fast, carrying everything in front of it. It is possible that even Jon Carin himself was indirectly responsible for the poor sales of TFC. He and his band 'Industry' had the big hit ‘State of the Nation’ in the 1983/1984.

Who would listen to Roger and his depressing view of humanity, when man could listen to the merry Jon Carin and his Industry at the time! 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDUm3Rzkwc0
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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Many albums have been poorly received on their initial release, due to being out of step with current trends, coming out right after Christmas - all sorts of reasons if you want to keep blamestorming - but have been rediscovered later with a newfound appreciation. The Final Cut is not one of them. The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking is also not one of them; Roger has been successfully touring for the past twenty years, thanks to a new generation of Pink Floyd fans that still have not embraced his solo albums (not counting ITTLWRW, due to being assembled by other people to appeal to those fans).
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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space triangle wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:10 pmThe same Rolling Stone who gave the Wish You Were Here album two or three stars out pf five, if I remeber corectly. :lol:
Wish You Were Here is a perfect example: it really wasn't appreciated when it first came out, because expectations were insanely high. Dark Side of the Moon has sold four times as many copies, but Wish You Were Here has come to be regarded on the same level, and is the personal favorite of both Gilmour and Wright (and maybe the other two).
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:50 pm
space triangle wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:30 pmWhen The Final Cut was released, it quickly spreads rumours the album is quite a weak. And also that the album was actually more like Roger Waters' solo album, and not Pink Floyd at all.
WTF, mate?

Rolling Stone's Kurt Loder gave it five stars when it came out, opening his review with "This may be art rock’s crowning masterpiece..."Many other publications did give it less flattering reviews, but none of them were as widely circulated as Rolling Stone. It is a very polarizing record - people either really like it, or they absolutely hate it. But to say that "rumors" deterred Pink Floyd fans - particularly all of those many, many people that bought copies of The Wall - on the grounds that it was really a Roger Waters solo album, is especially far-fetched considering how many of them didn't know who he was, as he painfully found out a year later.
Kurt Loder, in his widely circulated review, said it was essentially a Waters solo album.

Creem said it makes Waters look "as thick as a brick in the wall" and called it a dull failure.

Guitar World - "This is the death knell for pink floyd"
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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Kerry King wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 amKurt Loder, in his widely circulated review, said it was essentially a Waters solo album.

Creem said it makes Waters look "as thick as a brick in the wall" and called it a dull failure.

Guitar World - "This is the death knell for pink floyd"
I know it was said, but given Roger's apparent anonymity when trying to sell tickets the following year - which has always been blamed for the failure of Pros and Cons and it's tour - it doesn't appear many people read those reviews. I mean, any publicity would have been good publicity, right?

It is hard to fathom - as I mentioned previously, Dark Side sold roughly four times more than its follow-up, Wish You Were Here, because expectations were so high; The Wall sold nearly eight times more than The Final Cut, and it was a more expensive double-album. I would think that at least half of the people that bought the big sellers would just automatically buy whatever the band put out next, based on the band name alone - after all, isn't that the alleged reason for A Momentary Lapse of Reason's success? But that clearly wasn't the case, though it would be interesting to see detailed sales stats of, say, how many copies of The Wall had been sold when TFC came out, and how many copies of TFC sold in that same amount of time, without all of the subsequent decades of reissues, boxed sets, and tours. The Endless River has already outsold The Final Cut; I know which one I prefer, but how is that even possible?
Last edited by ZiggyZipgun on Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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Kerry King wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 am Kurt Loder, in his widely circulated review, said it was essentially a Waters solo album.
Is there anyone who disagrees that it's essentially a Waters solo album?
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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Annoying Twit wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:44 amIs there anyone who disagrees that it's essentially a Waters solo album?
I believe this: Because of The Final Cut is billed as "A requiem for the post-war dream by Roger Waters, performed by Pink Floyd." a lot of people have subconsciously accepted TFC as Roger Waters solo album. The Piper at the Gates of Dawn is as dominated by Syd Barrett as is TFC is by Roger Waters, yet no one ever calls ‘Piper’ for Syd Barrett’s solo album. But, if The Piper at the Gates of Dawn was billed as for example: A requiem for the Arnold Layne by Syd Barrett, performed by Pink Floyd, then the album would be considered forever as Syd Barrett’s solo album.

Well, it's a true that TFC is strong dominated by Roger Waters, but still the three of four members of Pink Floyd performed on the album.To me personally, sometimes The Wal seems like more of a Roger Waters solo album, than The Final Cut.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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space triangle wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:30 pmOn the other hand, when it comes to a relatively large sales of the A Momentary Lapse of Reason album, the primary reason is the conflict of the Pink Floyd members 1985-1986. When their conflict was at its peak, the newspapers suddenly became full of the articles writing about the band. The pictures of Water or Gilmour appeared suddenly in all the newspapers. Not just music newspapers. A ten days could not pass without the newspapers bringing a articles about the Pink Fkoyd conflict. All this aroused the interest of many people (even the new young generation) for Pink Floyd. This greatly contributed to the popularity and sales of A Momentary Lapse of Reason 1987.
By this logic, Radio KAOS should have done at least as well as The Final Cut; it had plenty of mention in the newspapers, he made a video EP for it, you've already stated that "Radio Waves" was on the radio as often as "Learning to Fly", it came out three months before Lapse, it's every bit as modern-sounding, and he toured to promote it. How then has it only sold maybe a half million copies worldwide, compared to Cut's 2.5 million and Reason's 5.5 million?
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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space triangle wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:42 amThe Piper at the Gates of Dawn is as dominated by Syd Barrett as is TFC is by Roger Waters, yet no one ever calls ‘Piper’ for Syd Barrett’s solo album.
Syd Barrett didn't tell the others what to play - their sound was four very different musicians following their own intuition, and he encouraged everyone to write and sing. He also doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole.

I'd say most fans of The Wall recognize that it's Roger's brainchild, and they're okay with that. That means there's approximately 17.5 million people in the world that own The Wall but have no interest in The Final Cut, even though it says "PINK FLOYD" on it. Maybe it's all of that other stuff on the sleeve that tipped people off that they might be in for a tedious listen.

(I quite like The Final Cut, personally.)
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 amHow then has it only sold maybe a half million copies worldwide, compared to Cut's 2.5 million and Reason's 5.5 million?
This is a one of the easiest things to explain. The Pink Floyd name/moniker/logo is a very powerfull thing. Roger's name(or David's, Rick's..) have never had such power individually as Pink Floyd's name. Yes, Radio Waves was a hit for a two-three months, but when AMLOR was released the MTV aired a quite often different programs about the Pink Floyd's history. Or, about band's new albun AMLOR.. Quite simply, much more media attention was paid to Pink Floyd and AMLOR, than to Roger and his KAOS. Which is completely logical in my opinion. And also, if I remeber corectly ''On the Turning Away" was a quite big hit too. Some time after ''Learning To Fly*.