Pink Floyd - The Wall

Discussions about Pink Floyd and Solo Official Album CDs and DVDs.

Rate This Album

5 - Best
73
53%
4
33
24%
3
19
14%
2
5
4%
1 - Worst
7
5%
 
Total votes: 137

Kerry King
Knife
Knife
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:54 am

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by Kerry King »

Jimi Dean Barrett wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:42 pm Lifehouse ... the better songs from it went onto "Who's Next".
Sort of. It doesn't get much better than Pure And Easy.
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Jimi Dean Barrett wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:42 pm Lifehouse was a big project Pete Townshend intended for The Who. In the end it was scrapped, and the better songs from it went onto "Who's Next".
The plug got pulled on Lifehouse because Pete's plans involved ending the show with a note that would make the band and audience vibrate into non-existence, or vaporize, or...something. His inability to explain that to the rest of the band caused him to have a nervous breakdown.
Jimi Dean Barrett
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 1421
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:30 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by Jimi Dean Barrett »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:43 pm
Jimi Dean Barrett wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:42 pm Lifehouse was a big project Pete Townshend intended for The Who. In the end it was scrapped, and the better songs from it went onto "Who's Next".
The plug got pulled on Lifehouse because Pete's plans involved ending the show with a note that would make the band and audience vibrate into non-existence, or vaporize, or...something. His inability to explain that to the rest of the band caused him to have a nervous breakdown.
Pink Floyd apparently made of harder stuff then. As it's only due to the Movie I've got any idea of what the plot is. Ok, he's being warned of thin ice. Some stuff about his Dad. Stuff about School. His Mother. Some questions about falling bombs. So he's left school and suddenly on tour? Ok. Now he's smashing up a room. Now he's signing a song to a woman who sensibly decided to run away. Something's being smashed. And now he's saying goodbye.

Challenge! Following the above tone, try and explain the storyline in sides 3 and 4! :-;
User avatar
theaussiefloydian
Knife
Knife
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:57 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by theaussiefloydian »

Jimi Dean Barrett wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:33 pm Challenge! Following the above tone, try and explain the storyline in sides 3 and 4! :-;
OK, so he's sad? And alone? And now he's singing about Vera Lynn for some reason? Oh now he's drugged up. OK now he's a Nazi for some reason. That's not good. Now he wants it to stop. And now... he's put himself on trial? And the wall's come down. Cool?
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Jimi Dean Barrett wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:33 pmAs it's only due to the Movie I've got any idea of what the plot is.
Gilmour has said that he feels the live show is the best version, and that the film is a "less successful retelling" of that same story.

Roger's track-by-track explanation of it from 1979 is pretty much the best we're gonna get:

https://www.pinkfloydz.com/interviews/t ... ance-1979/
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

"You see it works on various levels – it doesn't have to be about the war - I mean it should work for any generation really. The father is also…I'm the father as well. You know, people who leave their families to go and work, not that I would leave my family to go and work, but lots of people do and have done, so it's not meant to be a simple story about, you know, somebody's getting killed in the war or growing up and going to school, etc, etc, etc but about being left, more generally." [It's worth noting that Syd's father died from cancer less than a month before his 16th birthday, and Dave's parents kept him in a boarding school in England while they lived in New York City.]

"The wall was too high as you can see, no matter how he tried he could not break free, and the worms ate into his brain. The worms. That's the first reference to worms…the worms have a lot less to do with the piece than they did a year ago; a year ago they were very much a part of it, if you like they were my symbolic representation of decay. Because the basic idea the whole thing really is that if you isolate yourself you decay."

"Anyway, the idea is that these kinds of fascist feelings develop from isolation...This is him having a go at the audience, all the minorities in the audience. So the obnoxiousness of 'In the Flesh' and it is meant to be obnoxious, this is the end result of that much isolation and decay."

"'Waiting for the Worms' in theatrical terms is an expression of what happens in the show, when the drugs start wearing off and what real feelings he's got left start taking over again, and he is forced by where he is, because he's been dragged out his real real feelings. Until you see either the show or the film of this thing you won't know why people are shouting 'hammer,' but the hammer, we’ve used the hammer as a symbol of the forces of oppression if you like. And the worms are, the thinking part... The idea is that the drugs wear off and in 'Waiting for the Worms' he keeps flipping backwards and forwards from his real, or his original persona if you like, which is a reasonably kind of humane person into this waiting for the worms to come, persona, which is - crack! - flipped, and is ready to crush anybody or anything that gets in the way…which is a response to having been badly treated, and feeling very isolated. But at the end of 'Waiting for the Worms' it gets too much for him, the oppression and he says 'stop.' I don’t think you can actually hear the word 'stop' on the record, or maybe you can, anyway it goes 'STOP' - yeah, it’s very quick, and then he says I wanna go home, take off this uniform and leave the show, but he says I'm waiting in this prison cell because I have to know, have I been guilty all this time - and then he tries himself, if you like. So the judge is part of him just as much as all the other characters and things he remembers…they're all in his mind, they're all memories, anyway, at the end of it all, when his judgement on himself is to de-isolate himself, which in fact is a very good thing."
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

I was tempted to go into this in the Momentary Lapse thread, but I think Roger's songwriting was much stronger before The Wall. The fact that anyone would have to sift through old interview transcripts and piece together clues to fully understand the storyline is pretty disappointing, but the narrative on some of his later albums is actually incomplete. In his track-by-track explanation, he's not even sure what's going on in some parts: "Since we compiled the album I haven't really clearly tried to think my way through it, but I know that this area is very confusing. I think the best way to describe it is as a recap if you like of side one. And you could look upon 'Goodbye Blue Sky' as a recap of side one." Great, thanks. "TEAR DOWN THE WALL" wasn't added until the very end of the recording process, because it was just supposed to end with some people singing, literally, outside the intact wall. As Rick said, "Roger's original concept for the show was literally to build a wall, go home and leave the audience pissed off." I get that it was by far the most ambitious thing he'd attempted, but out of 26 tracks, only 4 of them really stand on their own.
Kerry King
Knife
Knife
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:54 am

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by Kerry King »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:28 pm I was tempted to go into this in the Momentary Lapse thread, but I think Roger's songwriting was much stronger before The Wall. The fact that anyone would have to sift through old interview transcripts and piece together clues to fully understand the storyline is pretty disappointing
What I loved most about The Wall was the mystery. Later, after I read Waters breakdown of the story, the power of The Wall was forever diminished. Not that I needed to sift through old interviews to get it. It wasn't hard to see the parallels between a rock star from the 1970's and a fascist dictator. I understood In The Flesh and Run Like Hell. I understood CN and The Show Must Go On. The first half was even easier to follow. At the same time, I never thought the concept was meant to be unambiguous. I like ambiguity in lyrics.

I think some of Waters' best songwriting can be found on The Wall.
thin ice
abitw-days-abitw2
mother
goodbye blue sky
one of my turns
hey you
nobody home
show must go on
in the flesh

I think they all stand on their own, along with the 3 Gilmour collaborations.
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Kerry King wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 am What I loved most about The Wall was the mystery. Later, after I read Waters breakdown of the story, the power of The Wall was forever diminished.
I saw the movie probably a few years before I bothered to buy the album - for a while it was their only studio album that I didn't own. The movie wasn't great and main tracks were played on the radio daily. I think I've owned the DVD for twenty years now, and I've put it on once.
Kerry King wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 am It wasn't hard to see the parallels between a rock star from the 1970's and a fascist dictator.
Care to give any examples? Besides Eric Clapton.
User avatar
theaussiefloydian
Knife
Knife
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:57 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by theaussiefloydian »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:33 am
Kerry King wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 am It wasn't hard to see the parallels between a rock star from the 1970's and a fascist dictator.
Care to give any examples? Besides Eric Clapton.
I mean I guess the Thin White Duke pops into mind - that character of Bowie's was unequivocally a fascist to the point that Bowie ended up disavowing that character.
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

theaussiefloydian wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:40 am I mean I guess the Thin White Duke pops into mind - that character of Bowie's was unequivocally a fascist to the point that Bowie ended up disavowing that character.
I think that was equal parts "rock and roll spectacle" and cocaine, and really only appeared in odd statements he would make during interviews from '74 to '76 - but it's a good point, because that may have been enough to be on Roger's radar (he doesn't listen to music anyway). The only "Thin White Duke" song is actually about Jewish mysticism, though he did reference the character again in the video for "Lazarus" - but again, only visually. Similarly, there were photos taken for Blackstar of Bowie in a sort of uniform made for the occasion, but there was no actual lyrical connection - he just alludes to characters that never appear. That is mystery; if something's vague on a Roger Waters album, half of it was probably cut for time.
Image

Image
Kerry King
Knife
Knife
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:54 am

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by Kerry King »

I wish Sexual Revolution had been on The Wall. One of Waters' great songs. It's lost amid the mundane meanderings of Pros And Cons.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:17 am That is mystery; if something's vague on a Roger Waters album, half of it was probably cut for time.
You're the one who sorted through old interviews trying to piece together the story. You're going to deny the mystery of The Wall? I'm talking about a 12 year old kid (me) hearing it for the first time. On it's own terms, I might add. No one told me what it was supposed to be about or anything. I didn't (and still usually don't) read any reviews. The Wall was much more intriguing to me than, say, Ziggy Stardust.

Bowie is too obvious to be mysterious. I can recognize when he's trying to be mysterious.

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:33 am
Kerry King wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 am It wasn't hard to see the parallels between a rock star from the 1970's and a fascist dictator.
Care to give any examples? Besides Eric Clapton.
Use your imagination.
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Kerry King wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:14 am I wish Sexual Revolution had been on The Wall. One of Waters' great songs. It's lost amid the mundane meanderings of Pros And Cons.
Based on the band demo in 4/4, I am so glad it was not.
Kerry King wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:14 amYou're the one who sorted through old interviews trying to piece together the story. You're going to deny the mystery of The Wall?
I read up on it to get Roger's version of the story; there's so much that he thinks it's about that you and I, as 12-year-old kids, certainly never sussed out, such as the teacher being a WWII vet with PTSD, or Poe's Conqueror Worm as a psychological condition. And this isn't intentional subtlety, because the guy fucking hates mystery, just as much as he hates stadium crowds, or fans that misinterpret his lyrics.
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Kerry King wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:24 amIt wasn't hard to see the parallels between a rock star from the 1970's and a fascist dictator.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:33 amCare to give any examples? Besides Eric Clapton.
Kerry King wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:14 amUse your imagination.
I could see the parallels between a rock star and a cult leader or any other religious persona, but a fascist dictator? Not that a fascist dictator can't also be a cult leader or religious persona, but please, provide an example.

Say what you will about David Bowie, but none of his songs have been co-opted by white nationalist pieces of shit.
ZiggyZipgun
Hammer
Hammer
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:04 pm

Re: Pink Floyd - The Wall

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Lo! ’t is a gala night
Within the lonesome latter years!
An angel throng, bewinged, bedight
In veils, and drowned in tears,
Sit in a theatre, to see
A play of hopes and fears,
While the orchestra breathes fitfully
The music of the spheres.

Mimes, in the form of God on high,
Mutter and mumble low,
And hither and thither fly—
Mere puppets they, who come and go
At bidding of vast formless things
That shift the scenery to and fro,
Flapping from out their Condor wings
Invisible Wo!

That motley drama—oh, be sure
It shall not be forgot!
With its Phantom chased for evermore
By a crowd that seize it not,
Through a circle that ever returneth in
To the self-same spot,
And much of Madness, and more of Sin,
And Horror the soul of the plot.

But see, amid the mimic rout,
A crawling shape intrude!
A blood-red thing that writhes from out
The scenic solitude!
It writhes!—it writhes!—with mortal pangs
The mimes become its food,
And seraphs sob at vermin fangs
In human gore imbued.

Out—out are the lights—out all!
And, over each quivering form,
The curtain, a funeral pall,
Comes down with the rush of a storm,
While the angels, all pallid and wan,
Uprising, unveiling, affirm
That the play is the tragedy, “Man,”
And its hero, the Conqueror Worm.