Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Discuss all things Richard Wright from his epic keyboarding to the wonderful songs he created for the band!
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mosespa
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by mosespa »

WhammyBar wrote:1. I'm not going to argue any more, because I think I'm not allowed to have a valid opinion.

2. Allow me to just chuck 40 years of musical training, experience, and knowledge in this very tiny bin where it will clearly fit very easily, and I'll be quiet from now on.

3. I just thought, maybe, I could put a point of view without it being shredded, but I was wrong.

4. I'll go back to lurking. It wastes less time...
1. You're allowed to have a valid opinion...when you express one. :P

2. Well...we only have your word for that, don't we? And given that you waited until your "resignation" to offer that information up, I can't really give it any serious consideration.

Sorry.

Maybe you should have taken a debate class whilst you were on that intellectual assembly line. You'd have learned that it's perfectly okay for others to express a dissenting opinion. That you don't have to take it as a personal attack.

*shrug*

3. "Shredded?"

Is that what you call "correcting obvious errors in another person's inaccurate statement?"

I call it "part of the discussion process." I also call it "what you were doing to my definition of arrangement."

But...we've already determined that you and I have different dictionaries.

You also seem to be able to dish it out better than you can take it.

*another shrug*

4. I don't know whether or not it wastes any less time...but it will certainly keep you from getting your knee skint by someone who's not going to just accept your word because you insist upon it. :D

Peace.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by WhammyBar »

mosespa wrote:
WhammyBar wrote:1. I'm not going to argue any more, because I think I'm not allowed to have a valid opinion.

2. Allow me to just chuck 40 years of musical training, experience, and knowledge in this very tiny bin where it will clearly fit very easily, and I'll be quiet from now on.

3. I just thought, maybe, I could put a point of view without it being shredded, but I was wrong.

4. I'll go back to lurking. It wastes less time...
1. You're allowed to have a valid opinion...when you express one. :P

2. Well...we only have your word for that, don't we? And given that you waited until your "resignation" to offer that information up, I can't really give it any serious consideration.

Sorry.

Maybe you should have taken a debate class whilst you were on that intellectual assembly line. You'd have learned that it's perfectly okay for others to express a dissenting opinion. That you don't have to take it as a personal attack.

*shrug*

3. "Shredded?"

Is that what you call "correcting obvious errors in another person's inaccurate statement?"

I call it "part of the discussion process." I also call it "what you were doing to my definition of arrangement."

But...we've already determined that you and I have different dictionaries.

You also seem to be able to dish it out better than you can take it.

*another shrug*

4. I don't know whether or not it wastes any less time...but it will certainly keep you from getting your knee skint by someone who's not going to just accept your word because you insist upon it. :D

Peace.
You know, I didn't come here to have my posts dissected line by line and mud slung at every phrase. That, despite what "Mosespa" seems intent on insisting, is not debate, nor is it polite. I'm going to fight back, because you're a bit of a bully.

First of all, in case you didn't know, an insult followed by a smiley is still an insult. A sarcastic jibe likewise. A "sorry" followed by an insult is worth nothing. Your shrugs demonstrate how little you care about what you say to people.

1. Your comment says it all, Mosespa. If you're the judge of validity, I wonder who voted you in? You just argue against everything you disagree with until the other party runs out of time to argue with you - and then declare yourself victor.

2. My word is all you have, and it's all you get for anyone on here unless you're breaking the rules and getting private info. Call me a liar but make sure you're right first. I don't see your credentials advertised anywhere around here. Your "intellectual assembly line" insult goes too far. An apology is in order for that. I'm a practical musician as well as an educated one.

If I was like you I'd have responded with "Perhaps if you had joined an intellectual assembly line you'd be less inclined to insult people to win an argument" :o

Do you see what I would have done there? I would have used your own insult against you. I would have descended to your level - and destroyed my own argument in the process... but then I didn't say it, I suggested it's what you might have said in my position. I could teach YOU some debating technique. Good job I don't insult people in that way, it isn't my style, and I don't think of people that way just because they don't agree with me... but you clearly DO.

3. Your opinion may be that a statement is incorrect or inaccurate, but you are not always right. My definition of arrangement is the one that is accepted under copyright law. It's also the one I was taught by an eminent arranger who has made a lifetime of success out of sticking to it.

4. My knee is intact. Someone has already agreed with me against you. Is that what hurt you? How dare you declare yourself the winner of the debate by suggesting you damaged me! You're awfully full of yourself.

Finally, don't provoke a fight and then walk away saying "peace". That's just more unwarranted sarcasm. You will not tempt me back to post more on this subject. I've had ENOUGH! This is over.

BI have considered complaining about your post, but I won't bother. Just don't make it worse please or I will. (walks out leaving door open)
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by mosespa »

*walks through the open door*
WhammyBar wrote:1. You know, I didn't come here to have my posts dissected line by line and mud slung at every phrase. That, despite what "Mosespa" seems intent on insisting, is not debate, nor is it polite. I'm going to fight back, because you're a bit of a bully.

2. First of all, in case you didn't know, an insult followed by a smiley is still an insult. A sarcastic jibe likewise. A "sorry" followed by an insult is worth nothing. Your shrugs demonstrate how little you care about what you say to people.

3. Your comment says it all, Mosespa. If you're the judge of validity, I wonder who voted you in? You just argue against everything you disagree with until the other party runs out of time to argue with you - and then declare yourself victor.

4. My word is all you have, and it's all you get for anyone on here unless you're breaking the rules and getting private info. Call me a liar but make sure you're right first. I don't see your credentials advertised anywhere around here. Your "intellectual assembly line" insult goes too far. An apology is in order for that. I'm a practical musician as well as an educated one.

5. If I was like you I'd have responded with "Perhaps if you had joined an intellectual assembly line you'd be less inclined to insult people to win an argument" :o

Do you see what I would have done there? I would have used your own insult against you. I would have descended to your level - and destroyed my own argument in the process... but then I didn't say it, I suggested it's what you might have said in my position. I could teach YOU some debating technique. Good job I don't insult people in that way, it isn't my style, and I don't think of people that way just because they don't agree with me... but you clearly DO.

6. Your opinion may be that a statement is incorrect or inaccurate, but you are not always right. My definition of arrangement is the one that is accepted under copyright law. It's also the one I was taught by an eminent arranger who has made a lifetime of success out of sticking to it.

7. My knee is intact. Someone has already agreed with me against you. Is that what hurt you? How dare you declare yourself the winner of the debate by suggesting you damaged me! You're awfully full of yourself.

8. Finally, don't provoke a fight and then walk away saying "peace". That's just more unwarranted sarcasm. You will not tempt me back to post more on this subject. I've had ENOUGH! This is over.

9. BI have considered complaining about your post, but I won't bother. Just don't make it worse please or I will. (walks out leaving door open)
1. "Bullys" expect some sort of "compliance" from their "victims." Since I don't expect such a thing from you, I fail to see how the word "bully" applies to me.

Do you feel like I'm shaking you down for your lunch money, or something?

I'm just responding to your elitist belief (which you have stated in a previous post) that "simple" music is somehow inferior to "complex" music...or as you put it yourself:
in popular music, especially when written on Guitar, a chord sequence often comes before a tune when songwriting and the whole thing is obvious and formulaic. In prog rock, though, the musicians tend to be of a higher calibre, often with a classical background, and they really compose a song.
You are aware that many classically trained session musicians play on *gasp* POP music recordings often more frequently than "proper" music sessions?

I find your above statement to be as insulting as anything I've said to you.

But at least I used smilies to soften the blow of ugly truth. :P

2. My "sorry" was sarcastic, anyway.

Thicken your skin, prof. No one likes crybabies.

3. I like how you seem to know so much about me. I'm just trying to have a discussion, here.

Perhaps I should explain (though I don't know if it's warranted, necessary or even desired) that I have little use for social pretenses. Sure, there are a number of ways for me to have said the things I've said that might be less "insulting" or more "proper."

I'm not terribly interested in pretense, though. It's bullshit. It makes it too easy for the person listening to gloss over what's really at the heart of what you're trying to say.

I'd rather get to the heart of it and risk insulting someone than to candy coat it and risk them missing the point entirely.

This is not an apology, by the way...so don't bother pointing out to me how poor of an apology it is. It's merely an explanation that seems to be necessary.

I never declare myself a "victor" (unless I'm doing so sarcastically,) and I've never voted myself the final arbiter of anything nor has anyone ever suggested to me that I am.

I AM, however, aware of the fact that the accusations which people level at others often say more about themselves. ;)

4. I don't have any credentials. I've just been a musician myself for some 20-odd years and have found myself in a wide variety of situations (many of which involve other people, lol,) which have helped form my understanding of the way that things work.

You're not going to get an apology for the "intellectual assembly line" remark because that's simply how I honestly feel about the educational system on all of it's levels. I see far too many people waving their degrees around who are completely incapable of an independent thought for my feelings to change.

I'm not saying that you're one of them, by the way. I'm just saying that if you're NOT one of them, then you're definitely in the minority.

5. And you obviously believe "If not A, then B."

Might I introduce you to my little friend X?

And...by introducing the concept, you might as well have said it. You're not quite clever enough to get away with what you've tried to here. :lol:

6. The "correction of factual errors" (or however I and you have put it,) comment has nothing to do with the definition of arrangement, but with your vague suggestions that Pink Floyd were a prog band and that it's members were classically trained.

After all, we were talking about Pink Floyd and songwriting when you introduced the ideas of classical training and progressive rock.

None of that applies to the mostly self-taught (this can be verified through documentation widely available,) technically average (when compared to the likes of...say...Allan Holdsworth, Stanley Clark, Chick Corea and Bill Bruford, for example,) members of Pink Floyd.

That's the only thing I was offering in the way of "correction of erroneous information."

I think I pretty much signed off on the difference between your definition of "arrangement" and mine.

Although, I notice that at no time did anyone suggest that what I consider "arrangement" is actually "songwriting." :)

7. Ah...you're a collectivist, too. Finding strength in the number of others who'll stand with you.

No wonder you call me a bully...your point here reeks of cowardice.

And at which point did I ever claim that I've won? Please provide me the quote in which I say that.

You're awfully presumptuous.

8. How dare YOU presume to tell me the manner in which I am to behave?

How dare YOU declare "over" an argument you're already supposed to have left? :lol:

9. Report me if you feel that you must. That's what that button's there for.

I'm not trying to "make anything worse." However, I'm also not interested in smoothing things over with you by kissing your ass...so, do whatever you feel like you have to do.

*shrug*
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

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Tell us what you really think \:D/
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by danielcaux »

mosespa wrote:I'm curious, though; do these other people (since you know them) allow other people to attach their names to the songwriting credit for doing next to nothing in the creation of the song itself?
Well, they have bands and they follow kinda the same REM work ethic on songwriting credits. Most of them just credit the whole band for songwriting when the songs have been composed with the "jamming" and "comunal arrangement" method, and they credit single composers when they have come with pre-written parts for everyone to play. So I don't really know if the answer to your question is a Yes or a No.

But anyway, for me the whole "songwriting credits" thing is really trivial and arbitrary, as most human laws are, it's just done for legal and monetary issues, it doesn't really tell the complete story about how a piece of music was created. Perhaps in the future they will come with a better and more accurate system for songwriting credits, like "This song was composed by: 42.3% Wright, 12% Gilmour, 29.7% Torry , 8% Waters, 4% Parsons and 4% Mason" and perhasp stick that info on the album booklets as some kind of "Nutrition Facts" for music.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by David Smith »

mosespa wrote:You're not going to get an apology for the "intellectual assembly line" remark because that's simply how I honestly feel about the educational system on all of it's levels. I see far too many people waving their degrees around who are completely incapable of an independent thought for my feelings to change.

I'm not saying that you're one of them, by the way. I'm just saying that if you're NOT one of them, then you're definitely in the minority.
Oh my god, Mosespa has actually managed to do what the most advanced neuro-technology has failed to do and actually read what goes on in other people's heads!!!!! I say only in jest of course. 'Incapable of independent thought'. And your evidence is what? Being that the first thing you learn in university is to be critical or skeptical of everything you read then this idea that all it does is turn you in to a collectivist is just unfounded. I have never understood the contempt that workers seem to have for university students. Being in even parts a worker and a student i encounter this bigotry towards university by people who never have been or never will go so really are not in the slightest bit qualified to speak about the institution (and yet most students/ former students work so are qualified to talk about working life) and just because they think of themselves as good judges of character are in no position to judge the motivations/ thought process of someone else. Don't tell me you believe in all that 'educated at the university of life' shit those in dead-end jobs who compensate for their lack of ambition/ achievment use to somehow elevate themselves above their younger and better educated counterparts. And no that was not a big elitest dig, end of the day most workers will not be like that. I know a lot of people who didn't go to university and regard them as my friends and see them as being as smart as me etc etc But then part of that is because they're not myopic enough to grudge students a chance at following their passions and advancing themselves intellectually.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by Peter Harold »

Well, I think we should go back to topic now, and my question is how we can separate who recorded what [keyboards] on "The Wall"-album. As for my knowledge, Mr Gilmour and Mr Ezrin did play keyboards on this album, but I don't know how much or on which tracks they appear as keyboard players.

Best regards,
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by mosespa »

David: I've been to seven different "universities" (community colleges, technical schools, even spent some time at a proper university) and all I ever found were instructors trying to make everyone in the class think like them.

Every person with a college degree that I personally have encountered is only able to parrot party lines. Ask them something that requires independent thought and they freeze up.

Whammy Bar: So...if an arranger should NEVER write a part which doesn't already exist, what do you call what Michael Kamen did on The Wall?

The parts that he wrote for the orchestra didn't exist until he wrote them...but he gets no songwriting credit for anything that he did.

Was that songwriting? Or arranging?
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by WhammyBar »

mosespa wrote:what do you call what Michael Kamen did on The Wall? ... Was that songwriting? Or arranging?
Neither, it was Orchestration.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by greenfx »

Rick was the initial producer for The Wall, my theory is that he wanted the band to take things slow and steady, so they all moved out to France and Greece and chilled for a while as they set up to record a few months later.

I feel Roger got impatient, he was the the most business minded of the group and EMI were apparently offering deals for the band to finish things early, he took advantage while the rest of the band were relaxing and before they knew it he'd already scripted out the album and demoed half of it, he and Richard clashed and Rick was kicked out due to Roger's political stance in the group and with the label; Ezrin was brought in as producer and Roger bullied him profusely too.

Roger went on to make what should've been a solo album, one of the few songs that involved real collaboration from Gilmour was Comfortably Numb, which should have been put on a Pink Floyd EP along with Another Brick In The Wall.

I honestly feel Roger sabotaged the band, he took it in an aggressive direction and left Pink Floyd in an identity process, then left and claimed to be the mastermind as the rest of the band recovered from drug addiction.

The real Pink Floyd didn't resurface again until The Division Bell.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

This is a fascinating thread, for several reasons. And in honor of Rick's new forum section, I'm reviving it.

Since this thread was started 12 years ago, we've had quite a lot of Pink Floyd releases, including a few that actually answer questions raised here! The Wall Immersion Set documented the several iterations of the album, from Roger's primitive home recordings through revisions by the band and Bob Ezrin; Rick's voice on "Waiting For the Worms" is a highlight, for me. And Nick finally got around to re-recording all of the drum parts for A Momentary Lapse of Reason! We also got a full album that showcases the Gilmour/Wright creative process.

And over the course of this thread, we got a fine example of the sort of bickering that can create an environment where members feel like their contributions are not welcome. Like Mosespa and WhammyBar, Waters and Wright also had very different musical vocabularies, and Rog has long been known for being argumentative.

I'll dig into some of the details of Rick's contributions when I have a little more time, but everyone can get caught up and re-read the thread in the meantime.
Last edited by ZiggyZipgun on Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by ChillOnTheSun »

Wait, Rick's voice on Waiting for the worms? Only Rick's hammond is there.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

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ChillOnTheSun wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:51 pm Wait, Rick's voice on Waiting for the worms? Only Rick's hammond is there.
In the band demos on the Immersion set.
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by mosespa »

snifferdog wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:39 pm Tell us what you really think \:D/
Haven't I always? :)

You know, in re-reading this entire thread, one thought (well, three, actually*) kept returning to me:

This thread was begun in 2009; the Pink Floyd Encyclopedia probably has every bit of this information in it and was four years old at the time; plus, I had a copy of it...why the FECK didn't I start waving that around? Seems like something I would have done at the time. *shrug*








*The second thought (because no one asked) was something along the lines of "Jesus Fuckin' CHRIST, people's skins have NOT gotten any thicker in the decade since this post. If anything they've gotten thinner. Looks like I WAS right when I started calling this shit out decades ago; maybe I should let everyone know?

The third thought was "#ThisWeedTho"
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Re: Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

mosespa wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:51 pmThe third thought was "#ThisWeedTho"
It's just a matter of different personalities, and they'll always clash that way. People tend to mellow out over time, but by then it's irrelevant to the ones you don't talk to anymore. Rick had briefly quit the band in 1967; in '71 he said they all have a certain amount of understanding and tolerance for each other, but he didn't know how they manage to get through the difficult times. In 1974, he said they should start pairing off to work on side projects for six months at a time, and that if they didn't, they'd probably break up soon; in that same interview, he also said that Roger was writing stuff that Pink Floyd would probably never use, and that he could see Roger going on to work in theater.