The Later Years 1986-2014

General discussion about Pink Floyd.
Kerry King
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Kerry King »

scarecrow wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:29 am High Hopes is such a powerful and evocative piece as it works as a near-universal paean for anyone having a ‘mid life review’ and comparing the mixed fates of former classmates, what cards were dealt and how the dust settled.
The flaw in this, of course, is that the dust has not yet settled. This also serves to showcase why Polly and David Gilmour are not regarded primarily as lyricists.

The music in High Hopes, fortunately, expresses it all quite beautifully in a way that words never could.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by scarecrow »

Well, not so much a flaw as your opinion from where I'm sitting.

I don't think 'Louder than words' has particularly great lyrics, but then again that's it's point isn't it?

Fair enough, although personally how any of the band are 'regarded' isn't something I think very much about, I'd be surprised if plenty of people like or don't like all or some of it.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by scarecrow »

Actually I might have been bellowing from pedants corner there, sorry. I suppose how any artist is regarded does have some relevance, whilst we're all entitled to like or dislike stuff as we see fit; I think it's a good thing though that in the UK at least, we seem to have moved on from this 'Guilty Pleasures' fad which was going around a few years ago.

Although, that concept perhaps does have some merit outside of its original context - eg anyone with an ounce of compassion who gets something from Syd Barrett's recordings made after he'd left Pink Floyd.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by DarkSideFreak »

mabewa wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:27 am As for 'If I were a swan I'd be gone,' it sounds like the kind of stuff I wrote in junior high school. I enjoy Roger's early lyrics, but it's hard to deny that he became much better and more consistent with DSotM. I still enjoy the lyrics of 'If,' but mostly because lyrics like 'If I go insane, please don't stick your needles in my brain' give us an interesting sneak-preview of his later lyrical preoccupations.

BTW, I wonder who wrote the lyrics for songs like 'Seamus' and '"The Gold It's in the...,' Roger or Dave? They just seem so... basic for Roger lyrics.
It's wires not needles. And I forgot to post how funny I found the word "glop" :lol: even if I didn't agree with it. My post was lacking a fundamental part! ](*,)
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

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Kerry King wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:38 am The flaw in this, of course, is that the dust has not yet settled. This also serves to showcase why Polly and David Gilmour are not regarded primarily as lyricists.

The music in High Hopes, fortunately, expresses it all quite beautifully in a way that words never could.
Whereas Roger is not regarded primarily as a musician, and these days isn't much of a vocalist anymore. [-X

I seem to be in a minority but I never rated "High Hopes" all that highly, despite being a fan of the late Pink Floyd era. I guess the problem is that it just doesn't sound much like PF to me. For one thing, there's no Rick on it, not even Jon's attempt at sounding like Rick (ie Marooned :cry: ). Also it borrows rather heavily from other pieces of music.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Kerry King »

DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:56 pm Whereas Roger is not regarded primarily as a musician, and these days isn't much of a vocalist anymore. [-X
Nor lyricist. Nor songwriter.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

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DarkSideFreak wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:56 pm
Kerry King wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:38 am The flaw in this, of course, is that the dust has not yet settled. This also serves to showcase why Polly and David Gilmour are not regarded primarily as lyricists.

The music in High Hopes, fortunately, expresses it all quite beautifully in a way that words never could.
Whereas Roger is not regarded primarily as a musician, and these days isn't much of a vocalist anymore. [-X

I seem to be in a minority but I never rated "High Hopes" all that highly, despite being a fan of the late Pink Floyd era. I guess the problem is that it just doesn't sound much like PF to me. For one thing, there's no Rick on it, not even Jon's attempt at sounding like Rick (ie Marooned :cry: ). Also it borrows rather heavily from other pieces of music.
Rick does play Kurzweil on High Hopes, though his playing is rarely very audible over the orchestration, unless you're listening on headphones. Jon's piano part was composed by Dave and reflects Dave's very simple chordal style. Not an interesting song in terms of keyboards, but those parts work for the song, IMHO.

As for Marooned, I find Jon's recent claim that Rick did not play on Marooned, despite Rick having composed the entire chord progression, to be a highly dubious example of revisionist history. The meandering piano style sounds extremely similar on the demos and the final recorded version, and the live versions (for which Rick is clearly playing the piano part, as you can see his hands at times). Why Rick would compose something so idiosyncratic, only to have someone else play in on the record makes no sense and contradicts all references I've ever read on the album.

Basically, musicians are often very poor sources on who played what on albums, especially years after the fact. Witness, for example, David's claim in some interviews that he played a lot of bass parts on Waters-era PF albums. It is well-documented that he played about half the bass on The Wall and Animals, plus odd things like doubling the bass on One of These Days and the intro to Shine On part 6, but otherwise most bass playing on most Waters-era PF album sound exactly like Waters' simple style and not at all like Dave's more busy style... yet Dave still makes these lazy claims.

Also, at least Roger is alive and can argue back if he likes, but when it comes to Rick's parts on TDB, it strikes me as cheap to remain silent about a Grammy-winning song while the co-composer is alive, and then wait for years until after the co-composed has passed away to suddenly claim that he didn't even play on it. Anyway, history generally shows that the production team is a much better source in terms of who played what on various albums, so I'd like to hear what Andy Jackson and Bob Ezrin say about Jon's claims.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Luca »

mabewa wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:34 am
As for Marooned, I find Jon's recent claim that Rick did not play on Marooned, despite Rick having composed the entire chord progression, to be a highly dubious example of revisionist history. The meandering piano style sounds extremely similar on the demos and the final recorded version, and the live versions (for which Rick is clearly playing the piano part, as you can see his hands at times). Why Rick would compose something so idiosyncratic, only to have someone else play in on the record makes no sense and contradicts all references I've ever read on the album.
I agree with you. Actually, there's an interview that Wright gave when Broken China came out, where he said that he considered himself more a composer than a performer. But he also said the Marooned was the proof that he was back in the band... I noticed that Carin changed his fb comments over time. He wrote "I played all the piano" but then many days later switched to "all the grand piano", it also seems that he deleted a comment and his own reply about supposed bad blood between him and Gilmour. However, it's pretty clear, at least to me, that he played more than a bunch of "additional keys" on the album.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by mabewa »

Luca wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:27 pm
mabewa wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:34 am
As for Marooned, I find Jon's recent claim that Rick did not play on Marooned, despite Rick having composed the entire chord progression, to be a highly dubious example of revisionist history. The meandering piano style sounds extremely similar on the demos and the final recorded version, and the live versions (for which Rick is clearly playing the piano part, as you can see his hands at times). Why Rick would compose something so idiosyncratic, only to have someone else play in on the record makes no sense and contradicts all references I've ever read on the album.
I agree with you. Actually, there's an interview that Wright gave when Broken China came out, where he said that he considered himself more a composer than a performer. But he also said the Marooned was the proof that he was back in the band... I noticed that Carin changed his fb comments over time. He wrote "I played all the piano" but then many days later switched to "all the grand piano", it also seems that he deleted a comment and his own reply about supposed bad blood between him and Gilmour. However, it's pretty clear, at least to me, that he played more than a bunch of "additional keys" on the album.
Good perspective, thanks.

From live clips, you can see that Carin played the piano parts on High Hopes and Great Day for Freedom, which makes sense since those parts don't sound like Rick and were presumably copies of Dave parts. In contrast, the piano parts (both electric and acoustic), on songs like Marooned and What Do You Want From Me sound very much like Rick, and indeed Rick played those parts live while Carin played other stuff. For what it's worth, Wikipedia states that 'Wright's grand piano parts (originally played and recorded on a Kurzweil) were recorded at Olympic Studios in London.' It's a bit unclear where that comes from since some of the links on that article are now broken, but it's been up there for years--Carin had has plenty of time to correct it if he thought it was wrong.

And yes, 'Additional keyboards' is likely understating his role, but I remember hearing AMLOR for the first time and lamenting that there were few obvious Rick parts (a perception that was later confirmed), but then hearing TDB for the first time and hearing a lot of stuff that was obvious Rick. Clearly, Carin can imitate Rick's sound fairly well live, but I've never heard much evidence at all that he can effectively create and play Rick-like parts in the studio. The most Rick-like part not played by Rick on AMLOR is the organ on Dogs of War, and that was played by Hammond whiz Bill Payne, not Carin. And it doesn't make sense that Rick would make up distinctive parts, play them on demos, then have Carin exactly mimic them on the albums, only to have Rick go back to playing those parts live.

I also find it notable that in the (very detailed) credits of Endless River, Rick gets lots of keyboard parts, while Carin gets few keyboard credits, and when he does, it's again, it's not hard to tell who plays what. For example, Allons-Y sounds very Rickish in the organ parts and not particularly so in the synth parts... and indeed the credits confirm Rick Wright on Hammond and Jon Carin on synth... and then the clips of them working on the song in the studio show Rick Wright on Hammond and Jon Carin on synth. I think that's a good reflection of how TDB was recorded--Carin was definitely there, but Rick still played the parts he had worked out before Carin even got involved in the sessions.

And I don't think that PF has ever been in the practice of misrepresenting who played what on their album credits anyway. If they had wanted to exaggerate Rick's role, then it would make no sense for them to credit him with 3 separate key parts on a track like 'It's What We Do,' and then give him zero credits on a track like 'Anisina,' which they presumably redid when they revisited the material in 2012, due to a lack of a good multitrack version from the TDB sessions. Engineers usually have tracks marked with this kind of information anyway, so they presumably just gave Rick credit for stuff he did and no credit for stuff he didn't do.

I suspect that Carin is miffed by having Rick become the star keyboardist on the AMLOR remix, and is trying to claim more of DB in response, probably influenced by the typical bad memory thing that musicians often display decades after the fact (witness, for example, McCartney claiming that he wrote parts of song that both he and Lennon agreed were written by Lennon back in the 70's). But without confirmation from the production team, I think he should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Luca »

mabewa wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:43 am
From live clips, you can see that Carin played the piano parts on High Hopes and Great Day for Freedom, which makes sense since those parts don't sound like Rick and were presumably copies of Dave parts. In contrast, the piano parts (both electric and acoustic), on songs like Marooned and What Do You Want From Me sound very much like Rick, and indeed Rick played those parts live while Carin played other stuff. For what it's worth, Wikipedia states that 'Wright's grand piano parts (originally played and recorded on a Kurzweil) were recorded at Olympic Studios in London.' It's a bit unclear where that comes from since some of the links on that article are now broken, but it's been up there for years--Carin had has plenty of time to correct it if he thought it was wrong.
Thanks for your detailed reply! One of the wiki sources could be this article: http://sparebricks.fika.org/sbzine28/Wr ... rev156.pdf, which apparently states that Carin replaced only the High Hopes piano part. Of course it's possible that at some point Gilmour and Ezrin decided to replace Wright's part with an almost note for note but tighter re-creation by Carin. This would explain why the outtake and the album version sound quite the same but the first one is more, as you said, meandering. However, now Carin is telling that he just played what he felt like playing.
I suspect that Carin is miffed by having Rick become the star keyboardist on the AMLOR remix, and is trying to claim more of DB in response, probably influenced by the typical bad memory thing that musicians often display decades after the fact (witness, for example, McCartney claiming that he wrote parts of song that both he and Lennon agreed were written by Lennon back in the 70's). But without confirmation from the production team, I think he should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
I suspect it, too. He also claimed to have been forgotten/ignored by the Pink Floyd facebook account. The timing, the choice of facebook, the posts edited two weeks later, on Christmas day (!), the claim that he asked for the Division bell credits to be rectified call for a "huge grain of salt".

Just some thoughts on TLY: I love the new remix of Amlor, and the complete Delicate Sound of Thunder is a joy, but... now that some of the gated drums and other excesses are (almost) gone, Scott Page seems to be more than ever out of place.
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

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This thread has taken an interesting turn and I thank everyone for their contributions. Here are a few thoughts:
- piano on marooned. I was surprised to read Carin’s comments about this. There IS a difference between the marooned jam recently released and the studio version and I specifically recall thinking the the piano on the album is very “busy” when compared to other Floyd songs. There’s a strong chance it’s not Wright but I agree it would be really odd as he wrote the chord sequence (presumably) and plays on the “jam”. Benefit of doubt to say the least.
- another thing Carin mentioned recently on his fb was that TDB was being lined up like ANLOR and done all digitally and that he dragged all the vintage gear out of storage and over to the boat (or was it Brit row?) and they were used to lay down the jams that became both albums in time. There is certainly a fair bit of vintage sounds on TER if not on TDB, starting with the Moog horn sound from Shine On on Its what we do. It kind of begs that it IS te Minimoog as Carin specifically mentioned that keyboard and it does sound a lot like Shine in. Rick might’ve programmed it so and they might’ve produced a similar jam. I read e link to the article, which I’d read before, and it might be that TDB and TER are NOT just kurzweils. It’s hard to say. The sound is there on it’s what we do, keep talking, and wearing the inside out, but it doesn’t seem to have the same oopmh as a regular Minimoog. It doesn’t cut through the mix quite in the same way, which is not conclusive either. Any other synth freaks out there care to chip in? The point would be why would Rick have a Minimoog around, program it, jam with it, and then recreate the sounds on another keyboard for the final version? Live is a different story of course. That said it’s what we do, the fat lead, sounds almost like it’s got oscillator sync... so there would go my theory, unless he also had his prophet v, which we know Carin is a fan of.
Speaking of which, is the live version of welcome to the machine the longest Wright keyboard solo on record? If we could magically have that with the Moog sound from the record I’d beam up the the sky! (The Jx-10 or kurzweil single osc thing doesn’t quite rock my boat at least on the high register)
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by Luca »

raisemyrent wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:48 am This thread has taken an interesting turn and I thank everyone for their contributions. Here are a few thoughts:
- piano on marooned. I was surprised to read Carin’s comments about this. There IS a difference between the marooned jam recently released and the studio version and I specifically recall thinking the the piano on the album is very “busy” when compared to other Floyd songs. There’s a strong chance it’s not Wright but I agree it would be really odd as he wrote the chord sequence (presumably) and plays on the “jam”. Benefit of doubt to say the least.
Interesting yes, although a little sad, since these comments clearly unveil a fall-out between Carin and Gilmour. The Marooned outtake available on YouTube is a better comparison, imo, than the Marooned Jam on TLY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em6hUlK ... rt_radio=1

A recent interview with Andy Jackson reveals in retrospect the need for studio aces: "One of my only regrets from making all these albums with the band is that we never got to make them in the Pro Tools era, because the freedom it provides could have made both Nick and Rick relax a lot more and, I think, some of it could have been better". Yet it's hard to believe that Rick played on Cluster One, Poles Apart, Wearing the Inside Out and Keep Talking, and nothing at all on the other half of the album.

https://www.psneurope.com/studio/andy-j ... ater-years
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by raisemyrent »

Oh right. That outtake. It’s actually an early version. Some of the bits are in the final product. Gilmour going mental really eh
The piano actually stops halfway or so. So it might lead credence to the Carin comments. He might’ve overdubbed a busy piano over the mostly finished track near the end of the recording process.
Indeed it’s funny to think that Wright isn’t really on TDB that much. He is all over TER though, even if some parts are clearly stretched or looped or whatever for obvious reasons (eg sum skins)
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by mabewa »

Luca wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:54 am
mabewa wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:43 am
From live clips, you can see that Carin played the piano parts on High Hopes and Great Day for Freedom, which makes sense since those parts don't sound like Rick and were presumably copies of Dave parts. In contrast, the piano parts (both electric and acoustic), on songs like Marooned and What Do You Want From Me sound very much like Rick, and indeed Rick played those parts live while Carin played other stuff. For what it's worth, Wikipedia states that 'Wright's grand piano parts (originally played and recorded on a Kurzweil) were recorded at Olympic Studios in London.' It's a bit unclear where that comes from since some of the links on that article are now broken, but it's been up there for years--Carin had has plenty of time to correct it if he thought it was wrong.
Thanks for your detailed reply! One of the wiki sources could be this article: http://sparebricks.fika.org/sbzine28/Wr ... rev156.pdf, which apparently states that Carin replaced only the High Hopes piano part. Of course it's possible that at some point Gilmour and Ezrin decided to replace Wright's part with an almost note for note but tighter re-creation by Carin. This would explain why the outtake and the album version sound quite the same but the first one is more, as you said, meandering. However, now Carin is telling that he just played what he felt like playing.
I suspect that Carin is miffed by having Rick become the star keyboardist on the AMLOR remix, and is trying to claim more of DB in response, probably influenced by the typical bad memory thing that musicians often display decades after the fact (witness, for example, McCartney claiming that he wrote parts of song that both he and Lennon agreed were written by Lennon back in the 70's). But without confirmation from the production team, I think he should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
I suspect it, too. He also claimed to have been forgotten/ignored by the Pink Floyd facebook account. The timing, the choice of facebook, the posts edited two weeks later, on Christmas day (!), the claim that he asked for the Division bell credits to be rectified call for a "huge grain of salt".

Just some thoughts on TLY: I love the new remix of Amlor, and the complete Delicate Sound of Thunder is a joy, but... now that some of the gated drums and other excesses are (almost) gone, Scott Page seems to be more than ever out of place.
Thanks, that's a good resource from Sparebricks!

Speaking of parts being replaced--that's an interesting topic, as it can happen both ways. With multitrack recording, it's quite possible to have a number of different takes of a particular parts, even by different musicians, and sometimes the musicians themselves aren't fully aware of which parts actually made it into the final mix, even years after the record. This is one reason as to why engineers are often the most reliable source of information about these things. Anyway, as you say, it's possible that Carin replaced some of Wrights parts, but also possible that both musicians played the same part, and Carin isn't aware that his part wasn't the one used. Or maybe Carin is just suffering from the bad memory that often leads musicians to make these kinds of claims decades after the fact. Again, I'd love to hear what Andy Jackson has to say about this.

By the way, you mention Carin's stating that he asked for the Division Bell credits to be rectified... do you have any more information about exactly what happened there?
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Re: The Later Years 1986-2014

Post by mabewa »

Luca wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:40 pm
raisemyrent wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:48 am This thread has taken an interesting turn and I thank everyone for their contributions. Here are a few thoughts:
- piano on marooned. I was surprised to read Carin’s comments about this. There IS a difference between the marooned jam recently released and the studio version and I specifically recall thinking the the piano on the album is very “busy” when compared to other Floyd songs. There’s a strong chance it’s not Wright but I agree it would be really odd as he wrote the chord sequence (presumably) and plays on the “jam”. Benefit of doubt to say the least.
Interesting yes, although a little sad, since these comments clearly unveil a fall-out between Carin and Gilmour. The Marooned outtake available on YouTube is a better comparison, imo, than the Marooned Jam on TLY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em6hUlK ... rt_radio=1

A recent interview with Andy Jackson reveals in retrospect the need for studio aces: "One of my only regrets from making all these albums with the band is that we never got to make them in the Pro Tools era, because the freedom it provides could have made both Nick and Rick relax a lot more and, I think, some of it could have been better". Yet it's hard to believe that Rick played on Cluster One, Poles Apart, Wearing the Inside Out and Keep Talking, and nothing at all on the other half of the album.

https://www.psneurope.com/studio/andy-j ... ater-years
For what it's worth, it seems that Andy Jackson's comments were referring more to wishing they had been able to get looser takes from Nick and Rick than being able to get takes at all. (though of course in AMLOR it's well-documented that Nick and Rick did not play a lot of the drums and keyboards). The context is him saying that in some ways, it turned out to be better that they had to get Rick parts from live performances, as if they had gotten Rick to redo the keys for AMLOR, he probably would have played more conservatively.

As for Carin's statements, to my memory, it seems that he claims to have played all the keyboards on 4 songs: Cluster One, Marooned, Lost for Words, and a 4th one which I don't remember. 'Cluster One' is another claim that I frankly find difficult to believe--some of the synths definitely sound like Carin, but the rest sounds much more like Rick. And again, you get another case of Carin stating that Rick did not playing on a song he co-wrote.

I've just heard too many claims of this time from various musicians over the years that were later firmly rebutted by engineers and others to believe it, though I do think that Carin might legitimately feel that the credits to TBD undersell his contributions.