Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Talk about Nick Mason, Richard Wright and other Floyd musicians here.
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Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

Lee Harris a member of 'Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets' said in an interview recently:

“Nick was a lot more experimental as a drummer before David Gilmour truly learned to play guitar and he was left to basically just keep rhythm while Gilmour was playing those amazing solos.”

What's your take on this?
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Hmmm... David wasn't playing solos all the time. There should have been an opportunity for Nick to shine.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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You could argue Roger singing more made the bass simpler (Money excluded but what are their great bass lines since DSOTM? Dave played bass on Pigs 3 Different Ones and Sheep was a Meddle retread) which had an impact on Nick's playing?
Maybe it isn't fair to compare his drumming on the second album with the 70's work. But I'm still convinced Nick could have nailed the drumming in "Two Suns In The Sunset". No idea what that replacement decision was about.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Jimi Dean Barrett wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:21 pm You could argue Roger singing more made the bass simpler (Money excluded but what are their great bass lines since DSOTM? Dave played bass on Pigs 3 Different Ones and Sheep was a Meddle retread) which had an impact on Nick's playing?
Maybe it isn't fair to compare his drumming on the second album with the 70's work. But I'm still convinced Nick could have nailed the drumming in "Two Suns In The Sunset". No idea what that replacement decision was about.
My guess: politics. Roger asserting dominance.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Annoying Twit wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:42 pmMy guess: politics. Roger asserting dominance.
Let's blame Roger Waters again! Mason is too lazy to practise and develop drumming, but that's Waters's mistake!
Mason already couldn't (and still can't) drum 'Remember a Day' (1967), which was done by Norman Smith - who also assisted him on the first album. All Waters's mistake!

Mason nailing 'Two Suns in the Sunset'? Yes, if he would practise!
With practice, most people would be able to nail it. Even you and I. That's what practising is for.

No, let's blame Waters once again.
He's the Paul McCartney of Pink Floyd, in the sense of being the scapegoat. ](*,)
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Wolfpack wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:23 pm
Annoying Twit wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:42 pmMy guess: politics. Roger asserting dominance.
Let's blame Roger Waters again! Mason is too lazy to practise and develop drumming, but that's Waters's mistake!
Mason already couldn't (and still can't) drum 'Remember a Day' (1967), which was done by Norman Smith - who also assisted him on the first album. All Waters's mistake!

Mason nailing 'Two Suns in the Sunset'? Yes, if he would practise!
With practice, most people would be able to nail it. Even you and I. That's what practising is for.

No, let's blame Waters once again.
He's the Paul McCartney of Pink Floyd, in the sense of being the scapegoat. ](*,)
I have read your post, but having read a fair amount about the dynamics of PF over the year still have the same opinion. I don't feel that I'm blaming Roger unfairly.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Annoying Twit wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:28 pmI don't feel that I'm blaming Roger unfairly.
Then please explain how Waters is responsible for Mason needing Smith's assistence on the first two albums.
And how Waters is responsible for Mason still unable to drum 'Remember a Day', during his recent tours.
And how Waters is responsible for Gilmour's "asserting dominance" in continuing with Rick Wright, leaving out Mason.

Oh well, let's blame him anyway! ](*,)
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Didn't David repeatedly talking in a interviews about the situation he found at the begining of AMLOR recording sessions? :

Talking about these AMLOR sessions Gilmour claimed "Both Nick and Rick were catatonic in terms of their playing ability at the beginning. Neither of them played on this album at all really. In my view, they'd been destroyed by Roger'. :-;
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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space triangle wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:54 pmTalking about these AMLOR sessions Gilmour claimed "Both Nick and Rick were catatonic in terms of their playing ability at the beginning. Neither of them played on this album at all really. In my view, they'd been destroyed by Roger'. :-;
So, Waters is to blame because... Gilmour blames him?
Gilmour is God? Gilmour who blames Waters for 'The Final Cut' being a weak album, even though Gilmour can't write an album himself?

'A Momentary Lapse of Reason' admittedly isn't a Pink Floyd album. Less than 'The Final Cut'.
No lyrics by Waters. Almost no input by Mason and Wright. It's mostly Gilmour with hired writers and session musicians.
Who's to blame? Gilmour just points his finger at Waters. And gets away with it! :shock:
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Wolfpack wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:07 pm'A Momentary Lapse of Reason' admittedly isn't a Pink Floyd album. No lyrics by Waters.
By that logic then the 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' is not Pink Floyd album as well? No lyrics by Waters(except forTake Up Thy Stethoscope and Walk). All lyric by Syd Barrett. It' can't be the Pink Floyd album. :)
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Wolfpack wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:33 pm
Annoying Twit wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:28 pmI don't feel that I'm blaming Roger unfairly.
Then please explain how Waters is responsible for Mason needing Smith's assistence on the first two albums.
And how Waters is responsible for Mason still unable to drum 'Remember a Day', during his recent tours.
And how Waters is responsible for Gilmour's "asserting dominance" in continuing with Rick Wright, leaving out Mason.

Oh well, let's blame him anyway! ](*,)
Having looked through your past posting history, and looked at some of your other posts in this thread, you seem to be interested in picking a fight rather than discussing music in a constructive way.

I'll continue on. But, if you reply in a manner similar to the above with wild statement left and right, then I certainly won't feel obliged to answer.

I'm specifically talking about one era, which is The Final Cut, where Dave and Nick were bought in to play their parts like session men. Roger later said that if he had his time again for that album he'd allow a band to work up their parts (though, he didn't specifically mention Dave and Nick there.) https://www.pinkfloydz.com/interviews/f ... june-2004/ That would have given Dave and Nick much more input on the album (assuming that Rog wouldn't have made it a solo album with a different band.) It's reported widely that Waters would not take suggestions from Gilmour and Mason. https://consequenceofsound.net/2017/06/ ... statement/

There is absolutely no question that Roger wasn't asserting his dominance during The Final Cut era, and the album is a solo album in all but name. If the album had developed as a band album, then the players would have had time to develop their own parts and have time to practice them more. To play sessions requires a particular skillset - which is to get on and get the required take quickly. I don't think anyone claims that Nick is a crack session player - he's a band member which is a different thing entirely. Like if they hadn't been on the oft-quoted 'tight schedule' when recoding The Wall, Nick might have had time to learn the parts for Mother. And on Two Suns, if Nick hadn't been treated like a session player but as a band member, then again things may have been different.

BTW: Concening 'Mother', Mason drummed on the version on the Immersion Boxset, I believe. Clearly Mason could play the track, though I admit that unlike some others, I do prefer Porcaro's version to Mason's. Similarly, if allowed, I'm sure that Mason could have developed a part for Two Suns. But, TFC wasn't being recorded like that.

People are talking about 5/4 as if it's some truly weird time signature. It's a simple time signature (as in: simple, compound, odd), and I can't believe that Nick couldn't have played those parts. He did learn them for the live shows (though, he was shadowed by another drummer as every member of the band had an additional player playing the same instrument.) Nick can be seen playing 'Mother' here. I don't see him stop during any of the song.
Last edited by Annoying Twit on Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Hey Wolffpack did you read this article? I believe you will like it. :)

Roger Waters Says Pink Floyd Bandmates Thought He Was Tone Deaf

Pink Floyd bassist, songwriter, and visionary Roger Waters says he never really appreciated his musical abilities until he got away from his old band.
In an interview with Marc Maron, Waters described the "toxic" environment that preceded the end of Pink Floyd. He said David Gilmour and Rick Wright, in particular, seemed to be out to quash his musical ambitions wherever possible."I always felt insignificant and somewhat inept," he said. After leaving Pink Floyd, Waters came to realize he has "a fairly sophisticated musical brain."

"I think it was really important that I got away when I did," he on Maron's popular WTF Podcast. "I was in a very toxic environment...David [Gilmour] and Rick [Wright] mainly who were always trying to drag me down, always trying to knock me off whatever that perch was."
Waters said his former guitarist and keyboardist would claim "that [he] was tone-deaf.""'Ooh, he's just a boring teacher-figure who tells us what to do, but he can't tune his own guitar...' They felt very insignificant, I think." Waters qualified that he didn't mean to vilify his former band mates or diminish what they all accomplished together."And I'm not putting them down," he said. "Those years that we were together, whatever it was like socially, we did some really good work together...We didn't share the vision but we shared the workload."

Stepping back, Waters says he'll be known for how he revolutionized the live rock experience."My major contribution to rock 'n' roll -- I mean I've written some decent songs -- but it was really to develop the theater of arena rock, which I did almost single-handedly back in the middle '70s."Maron pointed out that Waters had quite a hand in popularizing the concept album, too, but Waters argued that had been done before, especially by bands like The Who.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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space triangle wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:51 pmBy that logic then the 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' is not Pink Floyd album as well? No lyrics by Waters(except forTake Up Thy Stethoscope and Walk). All lyric by Syd Barrett. It' can't be the Pink Floyd album. :)
So, even 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn' has more lyrics by Waters than 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason', 'The Division Bell' and 'The Endless River'. :)
Syd Barrett is (was) a Pink Floyd member, not a hired writer or a session musician. Therefore, 'Piper' is more a Pink Floyd album than 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason'.
Annoying Twit wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:06 pmHaving looked through your past posting history, and looked at some of your other posts in this thread, you seem to be interested in picking a fight rather than discussing music in a constructive way.
Researching someone's past posting history, calling him a brawler... :-;
Annoying Twit wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:06 pmI'm specifically talking about one era, which is The Final Cut, [...]
I'm writing about Mason in general.
You were writing about the "second album" ('A Saucerful of Secrets'), 'Meddle', 'Animals' ("impact on Nick's playing"), "the 70's work". Not only 'The Final Cut'.
Annoying Twit wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:06 pmThere is absolutely no question that Roger wasn't asserting his dominance during The Final Cut era, and the album is a solo album in all but name. If the album had developed as a band album, then the players would have had time to develop their own parts and have time to practice them more.
What does your judgement say about 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason', about Gilmour asserting his dominance?
"If the album had developed as a band album, then the players would have had time to develop their own parts and have time to practice them more."
Especially Mason (before Wright joined) had plenty of time to practise for that album, but he didn't.
Annoying Twit wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:06 pmLike if they hadn't been on the oft-quoted 'tight schedule' when recoding The Wall, Nick might have had time to learn the parts for Mother. And on Two Suns, if Nick hadn't been treated like a session player but as a band member, then again things may have been different.
They hired a session drummer, because Mason just couldn't nail his parts.
If Mason would have been a session player, they wouldn't have needed to hire one.
Tight schedule recording The Wall? Wasn't the album in development for about a year?
Annoying Twit wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:06 pmPeople are talking about 5/4 as if it's some truly weird time signature. It's a simple time signature (as in: simple, compound, odd), and I can't believe that Nick couldn't have played those parts. He did learn them for the live shows (though, he was shadowed by another drummer as every member of the band had an additional player playing the same instrument.) Nick can be seen playing 'Mother' here. I don't see him stop during any of the song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73UMWoXRbjg
That footage is so dark, I almost can't see anything. Was Mason the only drummer, here?
During the 'The Wall' live shows, Mason could use the studio recording as example for his practising.

And what about 'Remember a Day', which he still can't nail?
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Wolfpack wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:36 pm Deleted.
I'm interested in discussing Pink Floyd music. I'm not looking for pointless arguments pulling in all sorts of irrelevant 'points' for no reason other than picking a fight.
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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

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Around 4.51-4.52 nin. at that footage one can well see that it is Willie Wilson pkying drums. I can't see Nick anywhere.