Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Talk about Nick Mason, Richard Wright and other Floyd musicians here.
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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Wolfpack »

Kerry King wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:24 am
I don't like people who hog credit in a team situation. Particularly when they go off and do mediocre work without the team.
The credits system is what it is. If you want to change it, become a politician.

If Waters would have stayed in Pink Floyd, the work would also have become mediocre. No more fresh ideas.
Waters writing political songs over and over, Gilmour playing variations of his 'Comfortably Numb' solo over and over.
space triangle wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:32 pm
Gilmour has taken Rick Wright with him for his 'On An Island' SOLO tour. 'Live in Gdansk' you must have listened to it. He took Rick because of he needed him to sing some lead and backing vocals. Then what would happen if he took Mason too? It would be Pink Floyd REUNION! Gilmour, Mason, and Wright are the Pink Floyd. Roger as we know it left the band some 25 years ago. But since David has repeatedly stated in the past that he did not want the renunion of Pink Floyd, then he could not take Mason with him and Wright!
Why not a Pink (Gilmour) Floyd reunion? Mostly, Gilmour Floyd already is a solo project.
And why isn't Mason involved at all on Gilmour's albums? Even all members of The Beatles worked on a Ringo solo album (1973), without calling it a reunion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringo_(album)

Even Waters had some Pink Floyd reunion by inviting both surviving members Gilmour and Mason (2011).
Why didn't Gilmour ask Mason for the Wright tribute, performing 'Remember a Day' at Jools Holland (2008)?
Why hasn't Gilmour contributed to Mason's tour? Waters contributed by singing 'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun' (2019).

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

Wolfpack wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:03 pm
Why not a Pink (Gilmour) Floyd reunion? Mostly, Gilmour Floyd already is a solo project.
If you look at the things that way, then everything Pink Floyd did from The Dark Side Of The Moon up to The Final Cut is a solo project by Roger Waters. Roger wrote all of the lyrics, he shaped the concepts of the all albums, he developed the elaborate stage shows and he wrote a most of the basic music for the songs which were later polished by Gilmour, Wright and Mason. And, if you look at the things that way, the first Pink Floyd album was pure Syd Barrett solo project as well. And then, what's left? Pink Floyd functioned as a (Democratic) group only in the period 1968-1972 (ASOS-OBC). Rick Wright wrote several songs at the time. Even Gilmour wrote many songs/lyrics during this period (The Narrow Way Part Three, Fat Old Sun, Childhood's End ..). He also played all of the instruments (even drums) on these songs. Can you imagine David playing drums on some songs on The Wall album 1979? No wqy. :D Pink Floyd was by that time largely a solo project by Roger Waters.

Wolfpack wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:03 pm
And why isn't Mason involved at all on Gilmour's albums? Even all members of The Beatles worked on a Ringo solo album (1973), without calling it a reunion.
To contribute and help at one's solo albums can hardly be called reunion. Gilmour, Waters and Wright all of them helped Syd Barrett when he worked on his two solo albums, but no one ever called it Pink Floyd reunion.


Wolfpack wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:03 pm
Even Waters had some Pink Floyd reunion by inviting both surviving members Gilmour and Mason (2011).
Why didn't Gilmour ask Mason for the Wright tribute, performing 'Remember a Day' at Jools Holland (2008)?
Why hasn't Gilmour contributed to Mason's tour? Waters contributed by singing 'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun' (2019).
You mixed the two things Wolfpack. There is big difference between 'reunion' and 'guest appearances'. All you said was almost always guest appearances on a one song. 'Comfortable Numb', 'Remember a Day', 'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun' and so on ... It was never any band reunion. But when it comes to Wright's participation in Gilmour's 'On An Island' tour, it makes a big difference. Wright was then officially a member of the band:

Musicians:

David Gilmour – guitars, lead and backing vocals, console steel guitar, acoustic lap steel guitar, alto saxophone on "Red Sky at Night"
Richard Wright – piano, Hammond organ, Farfisa organ, lead and backing vocals
Jon Carin – keyboards, synthesiser, backing vocals, lap steel guitar, programming
Guy Pratt – bass guitars, backing vocals, double bass, guitar on "Then I Close My Eyes", glass harmonica on "Shine On You Crazy Diamond"
Phil Manzanera – guitars, backing vocals, glass harmonica on "Shine On You Crazy Diamond"

So, had Mason been involved in all this, it would have been the official reunion of Pink Floyd!

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by dj865 »

Fun thread :lol:

My simplistic view is...Nick loved cars as much, perhaps even more than drums and/or pink floyd

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Kerry King »

Let's face it, from a musical perspective it would get quite boring drumming for pink floyd. Waters had him playing to a click track at the end. For an improvisational drummer that's like being put in a straight jacket. This is a band who made their name post-Syd as an improv band. By the mid 70s Wright and Mason, and improvisation, had been marginalized. However, it's absurd to blame it on Gilmour's musical evolution. It was Waters' theatrical approach that stifled the "jamming" aspect of the group. That same approach was also partly responsible for the their massive popularity.

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Wolfpack »

space triangle wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:11 am
There is big difference between 'reunion' and 'guest appearances'. [...] Wright's participation in Gilmour's 'On An Island' tour, it makes a big difference. Wright was then officially a member of the band: [...]
So, had Mason been involved in all this, it would have been the official reunion of Pink Floyd!
Reunion or guest appearance, Gilmour seems to rather avoid working with Mason. Since 1994.

The outtakes project 'The Endless River' (2014) is an exception, the first since the already exceptional Live8 (2005).
Gilmour needed to be persuaded. His main reason for getting involved was having a chance to work with Wright recordings.

Wright died in 2008. I doubt that people would see Gilmour and Mason as a Pink Floyd reunion, even if they would officially call it way.

And what would have been bad about an official reunion of Gilmour Floyd? Why did this Floyd version quit so soon, in 1994?
Gilmour fought for having the name Pink Floyd and made only two studio albums as such. It's little more than what Barrett Floyd did. ('Piper', three singles and the few tracks on 'Saucerful'.)
Kerry King wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:22 am
Let's face it, from a musical perspective it would get quite boring drumming for pink floyd. Waters had him playing to a click track at the end. For an improvisational drummer that's like being put in a straight jacket. This is a band who made their name post-Syd as an improv band. By the mid 70s Wright and Mason, and improvisation, had been marginalized. However, it's absurd to blame it on Gilmour's musical evolution. It was Waters' theatrical approach that stifled the "jamming" aspect of the group. That same approach was also partly responsible for the their massive popularity.
Poor Mason in his straight jacket, being forced by doctor Waters to drum for all those stifled Pink Floyd albums that made him able to collect expensive cars!
Mason just became a lazy millionaire during the 1970s. He got bored despite Pink Floyd.

Rather doing improvisation... Listen to Mason's 'The Grand Vizier's Garden Party'. Is the drumming that masterful?

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

Wolfpack wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:17 pm
Why did this Floyd version quit so soon, in 1994?
David lost interest for the Pink Floyd and a long tours.

2015: Gilmour: “Pink Floyd is dead. I’m ready to move on.” https://qz.com/484986/pink-floyd-is-dea ... o-move-on/

But Nick Mason was always ready! :D

2010: Mason keen for Pink Floyd reunion
https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-new ... yd-reunion

2013: Nick Mason: 'I'm ready for a classic Pink Floyd reunion'
https://www.gigwise.com/news/84526/

2019: Nick Mason: I'm Ready for Pink Floyd Reunion if It Happens, But I'm Not Going to Hold My Breath


But finally 2020 he realized it wouldn't never happen. :lol:

'I could’ve been waiting until we were 100 for a Pink Floyd reunion', says Nick Mason

https://www.heraldscotland.com/arts_ent ... ick-mason/

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by DarkSideFreak »

Nick not playing drums on "Remember a Day" is a bit like Charlie Watts not playing on "You Can't Always Get What You Want" (and I've heard a live version of that where he sounds lost).

Him not getting into shape for "Mother" and "Two Suns" does seem slightly different. It does seem that Roger exuded an atmosphere that stifled the other's input, perhaps not even intentionally. You can hear this in David's solos on TFC too, I've always felt they were way below his usual standard. You can hear how frustrated he was. The solo in "Your Possible Pasts" doesn't develop properly at all, those "grunts" are so uncharacteristic of DG...

In fact, Nick sounds stifled all the way back to WYWH. We know this was a hard album to record but I'm not sure I've ever heard much of his trademark "swing" on a PF studio recording again until 1993's TDB and TER.

Nick also tried to distance himself from Roger in this period by going out and recording sound effects. It does seem that his musical self-esteem was hurt by the 1979-1983 period, and that this was the reason why he didn't feel fit for playing on AMLOR. But of course not playing the drums much in the in-between-time played a part too.

space triangle wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:11 am
You mixed the two things Wolfpack. There is big difference between 'reunion' and 'guest appearances'. All you said was almost always guest appearances on a one song. 'Comfortable Numb', 'Remember a Day', 'Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun' and so on ... It was never any band reunion. But when it comes to Wright's participation in Gilmour's 'On An Island' tour, it makes a big difference. Wright was then officially a member of the band:

So, had Mason been involved in all this, it would have been the official reunion of Pink Floyd!
Also, Nick DID guest on the Royal Albert Hall gigs in 2006. It wasn't put on the DVD because David was afraid of it being touted as a PF reunion.

Personally, I think Nick would've only improved David's last tour, as I was really unhappy with how Steve DiStanislao handled "Money" (he did alright on most other songs though), which proves that Nick isn't so bad - you only notice him when he's missing.

But again, with Rick gone, it would've been the two remaining Floyd members (the same ones that were the band in 1987), and therefore not feasible for a solo tour.
Wolfpack wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:37 am

'Money'? His demo doesn't lie.
Neither do his 'The Wall' demos. Gilmour's demo (a rejected idea for a solo album) didn't get further than humming a tune over a guitar, to which Waters added the now famous words.
The difference between the Money demo and the finished version is so startling that David should have gotten credit - at least as an arranger (and many bands did operate that way - PF too on occasion). Even if the tune is basically the same, the feel is drastically different. I think Roger acknowledged that himself, saying his demo was "prissy". Once the other band members got less to contribute/arrange and the outcome was closer to Roger's initial vision, Pink Floyd became more "prissy" as a whole.

Kerry King wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:45 pm
Roger Waters' great songs are all very, very old. He radiates cold shafts of broken glass.
He sounds like a broken record!

Actually, I quite like "Each Small Candle" and think Amused to Death has some really good songs. But ITTLWRW really doesn't sound like something coming from a particularly musical brain. :roll: David, on the other hand, still writes a decent tune - I think this has to do with him putting the melody first, not the lyrics.
Wolfpack wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:17 pm

And what would have been bad about an official reunion of Gilmour Floyd? Why did this Floyd version quit so soon, in 1994?
Gilmour fought for having the name Pink Floyd and made only two studio albums as such. It's little more than what Barrett Floyd did. ('Piper', three singles and the few tracks on 'Saucerful'.)
Agree that that was something that irked me a bit, especially since I liked those David-led albums. I guess one concern was not to have PF end with "The Final Cut", and to get back out on the road to play a cross-section of things. When David settled down with Polly, his desire to create new music seems to have slowed down. But there are still tracks from "On an Island" that could've gone on a new Floyd record.

Maybe he was also tired of the feud with Roger and wanted to simply carve out a career of his own.
Rather doing improvisation... Listen to Mason's 'The Grand Vizier's Garden Party'. Is the drumming that masterful?
But that was Nick on his own trying to come up with something. Within a band context, he could shine (ASOS).

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Lee J Harris »

Hi everybody. Wow... I wasn't expecting this when I spoke to Rolling Stone last year!
My quote has been taken slightly out of context and, indeed, was shortened by the interviewer. I was talking to the journalist about why my idea for our band was to focus on the years before Dark Side and the fact that concentrating on that period of PF (in which there are no live versions of some of their songs and where they were looser with live arrangements of some of the others) was essential for Nick and us to feel more free/creative than if he was playing one of the very well known songs that Roger, David and countless tribute bands play for the umpteenth time.


Cheers.

Lee

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Keith Jordan »

Lee J Harris wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:31 am
My quote has been taken slightly out of context and, indeed, was shortened by the interviewer.
Welcome to the forum, Lee. :D

Certain parts of the media are well know for taking things out of context and spinning them, but I wouldn't have expected that from Rolling Stone. Shame on them!

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Annoying Twit »

Would it be possible to see the original quote before it was shortened?

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Lee J Harris »

Hi there,
Andy the journalist took one quote out of a long answer to a question that he didn't print but the gist of it is what I wrote above and explaining to him why I came up with and what the idea was...

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/musi ... ur-846765/

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by scarecrow »

Hmm, yes I can see how whatever was said could be twisted out of context.

I don't think it's controversial to recognise that the choice of material from say 1976-1983 meant more of an accompanying role, less exploratory and experimental for Mason?

I just have the impression Waters caught the 'songwriting bug'... On one hand I can see what Waters is getting at in various interviews where he talks about having discovered he could write, and that none of the others were writers. Well, I think Nick Mason gets a free pass by playing a mostly non-melodic instrument... but I do find it a bit strange that Gilmour and Wright didn't seem to make much of an effort in terms of bringing musical ideas to the table during that period. I'd think from their perspective, perhaps, Waters had brought such a strong bunch of songs to the table in 1978 that they were happy to make that one album slightly less collaboratively and then perhaps jam things out for the next album.

On the other hand, I think perhaps Gilmour, Wright and Mason's working methods were more about collaborating, gradually working up ideas from long periods of playing together in a band? My impression is that, except for a bit of a social bond between Waters and Mason, none of the band were close - and working up material from jamming etc had not been an enjoyable process on WYWH?

Also, I disagree with Waters in his assertion that because Gilmour and Wright chose to collaborate a lot, this means they are fundamentally not 'writers'. Nick Sedgwick's 'In the Pink' is an enlightening read re:1974 tour... it makes a lot of sense that the remaining Floyd would want to do this kind of greatest hits (plus new album) tours in late 80s/ early 90s because the mid-70s gigging experience had been so hit and miss.

I feel Waters got carried away with a very literal narrative and stylistically confined way of writing and stuck in it ever since the Wall (the opera project doesn't persuade me otherwise particularly)... correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not convinced many people really value The Wall as groundbreaking musical theatre nor coherent and meaningful intellectual statement? There's a bunch of great songs on it - so it's a good record/ live show.

I think the 'concept albums' from DSOTM through to the Wall hang together and make such satisfying listens, because musically they have a kind of circularity, a wholeness - rather than especially because of a central lyrical theme. I think DSOTM 'chimed' with a lot of people at that point, but that's not the same as it making any profound or intellectually complex sort of comment (to be fair I don't think Waters or the others would say it does either?).

Anyway, I'm glad we have Mason's Saucerful of Secrets doing the business - and I think although some of the great Floyd hits came in the 1973> period, the more groundbreaking and influential stuff came from the earlier era.

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by space triangle »

scarecrow wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:41 am
.. but I do find it a bit strange that Gilmour and Wright didn't seem to make much of an effort in terms of bringing musical ideas to the table during that period. I'd think from their perspective, perhaps, Waters had brought such a strong bunch of songs to the table in 1978 that they were happy to make that one album slightly less collaboratively and then perhaps jam things out for the next album.
David Gilmour: 'It got to the point on the Final Cut that Roger didn't want to know about enyone else submitting material. Musically or lirically.' :smt102

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Re: Did Gilmour stop Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by Annoying Twit »

space triangle wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:39 pm
David Gilmour: 'It got to the point on the Final Cut that Roger didn't want to know about enyone else submitting material. Musically or lirically.' :smt102
To be fair, I think that Roger really wanted to record that as a solo album.

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Re: Did Gilmour stoped Nick's further development in Pink Floyd?

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Jimi Dean Barrett wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:21 pm
You could argue Roger singing more made the bass simpler (Money excluded but what are their great bass lines since DSOTM?
Gilmour has said that he played bass on over half of their recorded output, simply because he could come up with something more quickly. Waters has said that he has never been interested in playing any instrument.

I did find it interesting that the bass displayed at the Interstellar Exhibition was one from Dave's collection - originally one of Roger's, at one point sporting a German camouflage paint job, but modified with a Gibson "mudbucker" (heard on "Pigs") and refinished like his lesser-known (originally white) '66 Strat. I would really like to see the fretless bass(es) used on "Fat Old Sun" and "Hey You" - though it certainly could've just been a different neck that he installed on that same body.

Just for fun, look up the video of Dave playing bass with Spinal Tap on "Big Bottom".