Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

Discussions about Pink Floyd and Solo Official Album CDs and DVDs.

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ZiggyZipgun
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

Wolfpack wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:09 pm After questionable actual contributions to 'The Wall', Wright is absent on this album.
Whoever is his substitute, as once Gilmour replacing Barrett, I think there's very beautiful keyboard work.

Wright became the new Barrett, when it came to being druggy and unreliable.
No one of Pink Floyd is to blame for that. And, as if it was some karma, Wright got replaced like Barrett got replaced.
Waters, Gilmour and Mason agreed that Wright became unreliable. Like they once, including Wright, agreed about Barrett being unreliable.

Wishing Wright would be on this album is like wishing Barrett would have remained a member.
Is Waters really to blame for being too ambitious for members who get lost in themselves, unable to just turn up and work?
I'd say it's kind of a stretch to compare Rick's ouster to Syd's; Rick was the most sympathetic to Syd's situation, and even said he would've left the band to start a new project with Syd if he'd been capable or interested. Rick was never replaced, either, and even Roger kept quiet about his departure until after the film's premiere in July '82. Rick said that knowing that Dave and Nick fell out with Roger soon after made him feel better about the situation, because it proved the problem was Roger, not him.

Rick was also the most open in his interviews, and even from '74 through '78, he actually complained about Roger's obsessions with education, war, politics, etc. He wanted Roger to go make these things as solo projects. He didn't like The Wall (and he really didn't like The Final Cut) - it didn't interest him at all. So, some might wish that Wright was involved in those albums, but Rick (and in hindsight, Dave) probably wished that none of them were.

Considering how close the band came to breaking up several times between '73 and '79, I think Roger was extremely fortunate to still have that vehicle for both The Wall and The Final Cut. Had the others moved on by then, and left him alone, do you think he would have kept using the name? Would that be an equal or worse sin than Pink Floyd (1987) Ltd.?

Also, we know that "Tigers" was released as a single, but...where was that played? Was anyone ever unlucky enough to hear that on the radio?
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

Post by Wolfpack »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:59 pmI'd say it's kind of a stretch to compare Rick's ouster to Syd's; Rick was the most sympathetic to Syd's situation, and even said he would've left the band to start a new project with Syd if he'd been capable or interested. Rick was never replaced, either, and even Roger kept quiet about his departure until after the film's premiere in July '82. Rick said that knowing that Dave and Nick fell out with Roger soon after made him feel better about the situation, because it proved the problem was Roger, not him.
Gilmour and Mason agreed to fire the absent Wright.
So, I think it's kind of hypocritical to just blame Waters afterwards.
More or less like Barrett in the late 1960s, Wright became a problem in the late 1970s.

Most complaints were made in the late 1980s, when Waters sued Pink Floyd - which he since then has admitted was wrong.
"Pink Floyd 1987" resulted in a lot of extra money for Waters, as a lot of work credited to him was performed and released as live albums.
Here, Waters shot himself in the foot. Waters the dictator, telling Pink Floyd to stop - even though their live shows delivered him lots of money.

On 'The Final Cut' (1983) and apparently also parts of 'The Wall', Wright was replaced by one or more other keyboardists.
In my opinion, 'The Final Cut' (fully without Wright) has some incredible keyboard parts.
And don't forget that Wright was only an afterthought on 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' (1987), credited as one of many session musicians.
'A Momentary Lapse of Reason' might be just Gilmour's own 'The Final Cut', when it comes to solo albums.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:59 pmRick was also the most open in his interviews, and even from '74 through '78, he actually complained about Roger's obsessions with education, war, politics, etc. He wanted Roger to go make these things as solo projects. He didn't like The Wall (and he really didn't like The Final Cut) - it didn't interest him at all. So, some might wish that Wright was involved in those albums, but Rick (and in hindsight, Dave) probably wished that none of them were.

Considering how close the band came to breaking up several times between '73 and '79, I think Roger was extremely fortunate to still have that vehicle for both The Wall and The Final Cut. Had the others moved on by then, and left him alone, do you think he would have kept using the name? Would that be an equal or worse sin than Pink Floyd (1987) Ltd.?
Waters wanted to stop Pink Floyd. He didn't want the name, but apparently also didn't want it to be used by other members.
Would Gilmour allow Mason to use the name Pink Floyd?
Or would he also go to court, like Waters did?

Complaints about Waters writing 'The Wall' and 'The Final Cut'... Where are Gilmour's, Wright's and Mason's concepts?
Are there really people who think that 'The Wall' shouldn't be part of the Pink Floyd canon? I think that's very hardcore!

For me, Gilmour did a great job on 'The Final Cut'.
It's not just praising Waters. Maybe it's mostly praising Gilmour, who I think has never been as great a musician since then.

If Pink Floyd would have continued without rather-be-coke-sniffing Wright and rather-be-car-racing Mason, just Gilmour and Waters as a team, that might have been great.
What would you rather have? Waters-Gilmour or Gilmour-Mason-Wright? It might be an interesting poll!

Listening to 'The Final Cut' without knowing credits, as I've described, just doesn't make me miss Wright. Or even listening Gilmour's 'A Momentary Lapse of Reason'...
Yeah, I really love 'The Final Cut' - whoever made it!
Put me up against the wall!

PS. Mason... For me, as I've discovered to my own shock, he's an overrated drummer. On 'The Wall' and 'The Final Cut' (and as early as 'Remember a Day'), session drummers had to do the drums for at least 'Mother' and 'Two Suns in the Sunset'. Mason held Pink Floyd back...
I guess Mason mostly was needed to keep whatever "Pink Floyd" together. Having watched Live8 rehearsals, he seems to be the one who can keep Gilmour Waters working in the same room. :lol:
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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Wolfpack wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:13 pm Waters wanted to stop Pink Floyd. He didn't want the name, but apparently also didn't want it to be used by other members.
"I'm not very good at holding grudges for a very long time, but he's done some terrible things. Honesty is not one of the things that he will let get in the way of his pursuit of power. All we did was thwart his plan to go off 'round the world doing a huge grand show, calling it ROGER WATERS OF PINK FLOYD in huge letters, and take over the name himself by us not being on the scene. I'm 100% certain that's what he intended to do, and us going out as Pink Floyd rather put the mockers on it. And his career hasn't exactly taken off since he left." - Dave, 1990
Wolfpack wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:13 pm"Pink Floyd 1987" resulted in a lot of extra money for Waters, as a lot of work credited to him was performed and released as live albums.
Here, Waters shot himself in the foot. Waters the dictator, telling Pink Floyd to stop - even though their live shows delivered him lots of money.
He lost that battle before the tour had even started. What's odd is that after it was settled in December '87, while they both had tours underway, he then tried to undermine them as much as possible, and filed petty intellectual property suits over parts of the stage show, none of which were successful. He then vowed to never release Amused to Death while Pink Floyd were still signed to CBS Records (which they finally left in 2007).
Wolfpack wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:13 pm Complaints about Waters writing 'The Wall' and 'The Final Cut'... Where are Gilmour's, Wright's and Mason's concepts?
Of the TEN albums they released prior to The Wall, only THREE of them were Waters' "concepts", and the vast majority of the music prior to Animals was written or co-written by Gilmour and/or Wright. Atom Heart Mother reached #1 in the UK; Meddle and Obscured By Clouds were both in the Top 10. Dark Side of the Moon is simply where the quality of Waters' writing caught up to the others.

"I thought that, musically, some of the vehicles within [Dark Side of the Moon] are a little weak. It seems like a daft thing to say about an album that’s done that well, really. But I still think that the balance, moving back towards sort of more instrumental passages and some of those spacier things was a good thing to do." - Dave, 1992

"Our best moments have been when we've achieved a balance of input, but too often I think we had a weak vehicle bearing a heavy weight of words. I don't share Roger's particular versions of angst, so it's inevitable that the songs are going to be different." - Dave, 1987
Wolfpack wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:13 pm Are there really people who think that 'The Wall' shouldn't be part of the Pink Floyd canon? I think that's very hardcore!
"The idea of The Wall was so big and there was such a lot of stuff that Roger wanted to get across lyrically that there was no other way to do it, really. As it was, we had to struggle to get it on a double album." - Dave, 1982

"Every song was written in the same tempo, same key, same everything. Possibly if we were not in this financial situation we might have said, "Well, we don't like these songs," and things might have been different. But Roger had this material, Dave and I didn't have any, so we'll do it." - Rick, 2000

"It was a completely different way of working for us. The Wall was very "un-Pink Floyd". Shorter songs, much less trippy, more intense." - Nick, 2000

The Wall was a total departure creatively and stylistically from anything Pink Floyd had done, and it was very specifically personal to Roger Waters; The Final Cut is a continuation of that same storyline and sound. Both should've been released as Roger Waters albums. If the material didn't appeal to the rest of the band, he should have made it on his own. But they were all in the same boat, financially, and during the recording of both albums, Roger resorted to extortion to get his way, threatening to scrap the project if Rick didn't leave, or if Dave didn't give up his cut as a producer. The Wall outshines anything Roger has done since, including The Final Cut, and I think that's because he had the Ezrin/Gilmour think-tank to help shape the songs.
Wolfpack wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:13 pm For me, Gilmour did a great job on 'The Final Cut'.
It's not just praising Waters. Maybe it's mostly praising Gilmour, who I think has never been as great a musician since then.
You're missing out. His solos on the title track of "On An Island" and "In Any Tongue" are very similar to his playing on The Final Cut, and his solo on "A Great Day For Freedom" from Live at Gdańsk is one of the best of his whole career.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 am"I'm not very good at holding grudges for a very long time, but he's done some terrible things. Honesty is not one of the things that he will let get in the way of his pursuit of power. All we did was thwart his plan to go off 'round the world doing a huge grand show, calling it ROGER WATERS OF PINK FLOYD in huge letters, and take over the name himself by us not being on the scene. I'm 100% certain that's what he intended to do, and us going out as Pink Floyd rather put the mockers on it. And his career hasn't exactly taken off since he left." - Dave, 1990
"I'm 100% certain that's what he intended to do". Gilmour complains about what he imagines Waters intended to do...
Gilmour, who promotes himself as "the Voice and Guitar of Pink Floyd". (The Voice? As if he sang everything!)
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 amHe lost that battle before the tour had even started. What's odd is that after it was settled in December '87, while they both had tours underway, he then tried to undermine them as much as possible, and filed petty intellectual property suits over parts of the stage show, none of which were successful. He then vowed to never release Amused to Death while Pink Floyd were still signed to CBS Records (which they finally left in 2007).
Waters himself has publicly regretted his behaviour in trying to stop Pink Floyd. When is it enough?
The stage pig was changed because of Waters's intellectual property. If Waters has intellectual properties used by Pink Floyd 1987, it's his right to be compensated for that.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 amOf the TEN albums they released prior to The Wall, only THREE of them were Waters' "concepts", and the vast majority of the music prior to Animals was written or co-written by Gilmour and/or Wright. Atom Heart Mother reached #1 in the UK; Meddle and Obscured By Clouds were both in the Top 10. Dark Side of the Moon is simply where the quality of Waters' writing caught up to the others.
Ever since Barrett left, Waters was by far the best songwriter in Pink Floyd.
Looking at the credits, Pink Floyd's most praised tracks always have the name Waters included.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 am"Every song was written in the same tempo, same key, same everything. Possibly if we were not in this financial situation we might have said, "Well, we don't like these songs," and things might have been different. But Roger had this material, Dave and I didn't have any, so we'll do it." - Rick, 2000

"It was a completely different way of working for us. The Wall was very "un-Pink Floyd". Shorter songs, much less trippy, more intense." - Nick, 2000
Every song "in the same tempo, same key, same everything". I seem to remember reading an interview in which Wright says that also Barrett delivered very unfinished songs which needed a lot of work by the group.
If Waters would have delivered fully developed songs instead of rough demos, there would have been complaints about the other members just being session musicians.
If the concept of 'The Wall' was as boring as Wright describes, the album all the more proves how much Waters allowed the other members to contribute - even using an instrumental outtake of Gilmour's first solo album (1978) as part of 'Comfortably Numb' (1979). So, 'The Wall' really is Pink Floyd! Or at least Waters-Gilmour.
Wright admits that Waters was the only one to have a concept. The Beatles and Queen had the unwritten rule that the songwriter is the boss, so why not Pink Floyd?

Yes, 'The Wall' (1979) and 'The Final Cut' (1983) sound very different compared to earlier albums. That's development.
Maybe Pink Floyd should have been making 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn' (1967) over and over again...
In the late 1970s, "dinosaurs" like Pink Floyd were attacked by the punk movement. I think Waters built a perfect bridge between the old Pink Floyd and what might be called "Punk Floyd". I seem to hear him imitating Johnny Rotten/Lydon on 'The Wall', especially in 'Run Like Hell' and the loudhailer "dead wood" part in 'Waiting for the Worms'.
Pink Floyd had to change in the late 1970s, in order to stay interesting for the youth demanding a change. I mean, 'Wish You Were Here' is sooo 1975... Songs that seem to go on forever... boring!
'Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2)' is an anthem like Nirvana's 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' (1991). And maybe it's an updated protest song like 'Money' (1973), being more to the point - as the late 1970s demanded.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, after Waters left, Pink Floyd became like a boomer nostalgia group performing golden oldies.
'Comfortably Numb' being one of the highlights...
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 amThe Wall was a total departure creatively and stylistically from anything Pink Floyd had done, and it was very specifically personal to Roger Waters; The Final Cut is a continuation of that same storyline and sound. Both should've been released as Roger Waters albums. If the material didn't appeal to the rest of the band, he should have made it on his own. But they were all in the same boat, financially, and during the recording of both albums, Roger resorted to extortion to get his way, threatening to scrap the project if Rick didn't leave, or if Dave didn't give up his cut as a producer. The Wall outshines anything Roger has done since, including The Final Cut, and I think that's because he had the Ezrin/Gilmour think-tank to help shape the songs.
Why shouldn't an album be a total departure? Times change!
Otherwise, Pink Floyd should just have stayed performing late 1960s psychedelica. How dare they change their sound as much as 'Wish You Were Here'?

Whoever made 'The Wall' and 'The Final Cut'... Who cares?!
I'm yearning for the time I didn't know about credits and nasty interviews.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 amYou're missing out. [Gilmour's] solos on the title track of "On An Island" and "In Any Tongue" are very similar to his playing on The Final Cut, and his solo on "A Great Day For Freedom" from Live at Gdańsk is one of the best of his whole career.
By praising Gilmour on 'The Final Cut' as never been as a great musician since then, I meant him as a Pink Floyd member.
For me, after 'The Final Cut', both Waters and Gilmour-Mason-Wright just became repetitive.

I'm not defending Waters. I'm just attacking every Pink Floyd member! Even the Holy Barrett!
They are all responsible for Pink Floyd delivering great albums, no matter how terrible they could be backstage...
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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Wolfpack wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pm I'm not defending Waters.
Lucky for Waters.
Wolfpack wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pm The stage pig was changed because of Waters's intellectual property.
Waters intellectual property = pig balls.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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Kerry King wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:49 pmWaters intellectual property = pig balls.
According to Wikipedia, the pig balls were added by Gilmour's Pink Floyd. :lol:
For the 1987–1989 tour, the band added testicles to the pig, which David Gilmour has said was an attempt to get around Roger Waters having the image rights for the pig.[1]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Floyd_pigs
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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Wolfpack wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pmGilmour, who promotes himself as "the Voice and Guitar of Pink Floyd". (The Voice? As if he sang everything!)
Prior to the release of The Wall, Waters had sung lead on half as many songs as Gilmour (something like 17 to 34), and the majority of them really are the least-known and least-loved songs in their whole body of work.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:36 amOf the TEN albums they released prior to The Wall, only THREE of them were Waters' "concepts", and the vast majority of the music prior to Animals was written or co-written by Gilmour and/or Wright.
Wolfpack wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pmLooking at the credits, Pink Floyd's most praised tracks always have the name Waters included.
...as a lyricist.
Wolfpack wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pmIf the concept of 'The Wall' was as boring as Wright describes, the album all the more proves how much Waters allowed the other members to contribute.
"The more it became all Roger, the less really interesting it became. The Wall album was not a Roger Waters solo album, no matter what anyone thinks. It was a year of very hard work by Roger and all of us, turning a good idea that can only be described as a pig's ear, into a silk purse." - Gilmour, 1988

"At first Roger had not planned to include any of Dave's material but we had things that needed filling in. I fought for ["Comfortably Numb"] and insisted that Roger work on it. My recollection is that he did so grudgingly, but he did it." - Ezrin, 2000
Wolfpack wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pmYes, 'The Wall' (1979) and 'The Final Cut' (1983) sound very different compared to earlier albums. That's development.
That's a near total lack of music written by Gilmour and/or Wright. The particular sound of those albums can be heard on a number of Bob Ezrin's earlier productions, like Lou Reed's Berlin. It's the sound of taking a songwriter's fairly primitive chord progression and replacing it with someone else's arrangement. Berlin is probably where Roger first heard of Ezrin, and maybe that's exactly what he was looking for - or maybe he was hoping he'd get Jack Bruce to record his bass parts.
Wolfpack wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pmIn the late 1980s and early 1990s, after Waters left, Pink Floyd became like a boomer nostalgia group performing golden oldies.
...and after they stopped touring, it was Roger's turn! Four long tours in the past 20 years, but only one new album. And don't forget the officially titled "Pros and Cons Plus Some Old Pink Floyd Stuff" tour of 1985, which essentially mandated by CBS Records, since they didn't want him to tour at all.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

Post by rockfenris2005 »

I couldn't stand this album originally, but then around 2010 I gave it another go and really got into it after that. I love all the Roger albums now too, especially Amused to Death (haven't heard the remixed version they put out a few years ago yet). I just feel that "Final Cut" is a Roger album, not PF.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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rockfenris2005 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:42 pm I love all the Roger albums now too, especially Amused to Death (haven't heard the remixed version they put out a few years ago yet).
I will encourage you to save your time for more worthwhile pursuits. The only difference I could hear in the remix was that "The Bravery Of Being Out Of Range" has been changed in ways that I feel are to the detriment of the whole thing.

I won a copy of it from a radio station and still wanted my money back.

Good thing I kept my copy of the original disc. It's the only one I'll listen to.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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The newer version was the only copy I could find instore, but I kept holding off until I could find the original one from '92.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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mosespa wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:25 am
rockfenris2005 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:42 pm I love all the Roger albums now too, especially Amused to Death (haven't heard the remixed version they put out a few years ago yet).
The only difference I could hear in the remix was that "The Bravery Of Being Out Of Range" has been changed in ways that I feel are to the detriment of the whole thing.
The biggest difference between the two mixes is the 2001: A Space Odyssey sample in "Perfect Sense, Part I". I personally much prefer that sample to the backwards speech that appears on the '92 mix. Other than that I'm not as familiar with the '92 mix - I bought the 2015 mix when that came out (and is one of only two Waters albums I've ever listened to)
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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I agree Bravery of Being out of Range was ruined in the new release
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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theaussiefloydian wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:23 pm
mosespa wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:25 am
The only difference I could hear in the remix was that "The Bravery Of Being Out Of Range" has been changed in ways that I feel are to the detriment of the whole thing.
The biggest difference between the two mixes is the 2001: A Space Odyssey sample in "Perfect Sense, Part I". I personally much prefer that sample to the backwards speech that appears on the '92 mix. Other than that I'm not as familiar with the '92 mix - I bought the 2015 mix when that came out (and is one of only two Waters albums I've ever listened to)
I do seem to recall making note of that and feeling like it was a "right thing to do." We may have listened to the same mix. I only listened to the disc once or twice, decided that I didn't feel like there was enough of a difference to bother with (not that I cared for, obviously,) and just let it drift off into some corner of my life.

I remember being glad I didn't spend money on it.
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

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I've probably discussed this (with myself) elsewhere on here, but...EPs. Albums are getting shorter, since more artists are producing their own material with their own money, and they're able to release more music more often if they're not worried about filling up forty to sixty minutes. The Final Cut would probably work much better as an EP, or possibly two EPs - one about the teacher, and one about Margaret Thatcher. They could still cross-reference each other and other Floyd/Waters releases, but in smaller bites. The particularly "epic" moments on The Wall and The Final Cut are fairly brief and scattered throughout, unlike earlier albums where the climax didn't occur until the very end. Even KAOS would've been better as an EP (though I'd prefer a non-album single). Roger's rough drafts may all appear to be triple albums in the making, but they're typically several ideas forced into one storyline, and they end up lacking clarity and taking way longer to finish. Amused to Death is basically a 'concept single' with "Watching TV" as the B-side, plus a shit ton of unrelated songs. As for me, I can't wait to illegally download Gilmour's four-song suite for harp and classical guitar. Rock'n'roll!!!
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Re: Pink Floyd - The Final Cut

Post by azza200 »

Some good guitar solos on the album but its depressing as fuck too listen too