My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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theaussiefloydian
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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space triangle wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:10 pm 'Childhood's End' has an ok lyric, but most of the text was inspired after Dave’s reading of the book Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke. I doubt that, without a book Dave would have been able to write that song.
This seems quite unfair to David as a songwriter. I won't pretend like he wrote the lyrics for any of Floyd's masterpieces, but he's had some good songs written - The Narrow Way (look, I like it), Fat Old Sun, Childhood's End, and his writing with Samson for The Division Bell and his solo work is also very good.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:25 pm Syd's "Chapter 24" and Roger's "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" both directly quoted Chinese poetry, while Roger's title was taken from the Michael Moorcock book Fireclown. The Piper at the Gates of Dawn is the name of a chapter in The Wind in the Willows.
Exactly this. Furthermore, Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke is about aliens quietly invading Earth. Far as I can tell, the song has nothing to do with that, being a lot more literal about what "childhood's end" means. So Gilmour really only took a title he liked and came up with entirely his own thing around it so writing his songwriting off here seems unfair.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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"I managed to get hold of a book of Chinese poetry from the late T'ang period - and I just ripped it off. Except for the title: I've no idea where it came from. It came from... within me. I'm glad it did, because I got a letter many years ago from a woman whose child had died of cancer. This kid...had listened to this song a lot, towards the end, and it had, in some strange way, really comforted her...I find that, obviously, very touching. I don't know where it came from, and so her connection with it is probably as strong as mine was."

Which brings us back to The Final Cut:

"I was in a greengrocer’s shop, and this woman of about forty in a fur coat came up to me. She said she thought it was the most moving record she had ever heard. Her father had also been killed in World War II, she explained. And I got back into my car with my three pounds of potatoes and drove home and thought, good enough.”

Roger has a few of these convenient anecdotes that he has used to suggest that his writing is just so profound, but I really don't believe them. The one about the woman in the fur coat is particularly far fetched, because we're talking about famously anonymous Roger Waters, whilst married to Lady Caroline Christie, doing his own grocery shopping in the mid-'80s, and being approached by anyone to gush about, of all things, The Final Cut.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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theaussiefloydian wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:44 pm I won't pretend like he wrote the lyrics for any of Floyd's masterpieces, but he's had some good songs written - The Narrow Way (look, I like it), Fat Old Sun, Childhood's End, and his writing with Samson for The Division Bell and his solo work is also very good.
Agreed - the list of Gilmour and Wright's lyrics is short, but nearly all of them are among my personal favorites. Waters' writing really didn't catch up to theirs til '72.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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space triangle wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:10 pm I doubt that, without a book Dave would have been able to write that song.
Without the newspapers Waters wouldn't have been able to write The Final Cut album.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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DarkSideFreak wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:07 pm

If TDB is a concept album, then AMLOR is too - over on APFFN (when it still existed) we went into the different levels of the lyrics on that one. Although it's not stated outright, pretty much every song fits together to create a narrative of, basically, nuclear holocaust (ironic considering that this was already something Roger was on about too).

I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. "One Slip" is about a regretted one-night stand, "Learning To Fly" while rather ambiguous is definitely about overcoming boundaries. "On The Turning Away" is about the need for compassion.

Gilmour and Ezrin both have said that attempts to find a concept ended in failure and that the closest they could come was to make the river Thames (where they were recording) a "theme" for the album, which is why it begins with the sounds of a boat being rowed.

I don't listen to "Side 2" of the album often, but my memory of it is that the only songs that could really be said to be about nuclear holocaust are the instrumental ones.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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space triangle wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:10 pm 'Childhood's End' has an ok lyric, but most of the text was inspired after Dave’s reading of the book Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke. I doubt that, without a book Dave would have been able to write that song.
The song has nothing to do with the book.

In fact, I think that given that they were already touring DSOTM while they were working on OBC, it stands to reason that Gilmour was inspired by Waters' lyrics for "Time."

They two songs do seem to share the theme of letting time slip away from you while you're busy doing other things.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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mosespa wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:53 am I don't listen to "Side 2" of the album often, but my memory of it is that the only songs that could really be said to be about nuclear holocaust are the instrumental ones.
I mean Sorrow' lyrics sound pretty apocalyptic, but I suspect it's more metaphor than anything else.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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Roger tried to encourage both David and Rick to write more lyrics for the songs. Sure, we all here know for the 'Narrow Way pt.3' example:

DG: ''I just went into the studio and started waffling about tacking bits and pieces together. I rang up Roger at one point to ask him to write me some lyrics. He just said ''No''. Write it yourself.''

And, speaking about that interview with Roger he said also something along the lines of: ''People make a mistake if they think I enjoy sitting at home brainstorming around the lyrics. I would have preferred to have been on the sailing as the rest of the band, or playing the golf with them. But, I have to do it because no one else wants to do it''.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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space triangle wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:54 am Roger tried to encourage both David and Rick to write more lyrics for the songs. Sure, we all here know for the 'Narrow Way pt.3' example
Roger wouldn't help him because the concept was that they were all working separately, without help from the others - which was Rick's idea. Meanwhile, Roger's own contributions were the laziest.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:40 pm
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:35 pm"I’m bored with most of the stuff we’ve done. I’m bored with most of the stuff we play." - Roger Waters, 1970
penguinzzz wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:14 pmAnd the next question was:

"Even the new stuff?"

"Well, there isn’t very much new stuff, is there, if you look at it? I’m not bored with doing “Atom Heart Mother” when we get the brass and choir together, because it’s so weird doing it."
...they only did this a handful of times, and it was chaotic, which is what he liked about it. It also lost a lot of money, and he would later turn that into an artform.

It is a fascinating and rare early interview that covers a lot of ground.
The point was that Waters isn't referring to AHM when he talks about being bored with what they were playing (the comment is prompted by discussing the recent dropping of 'Interstellar'). But yes it's a very revealing interview, essentially mapping out where he saw the band going, not all of which happened quite as he imagined.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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penguinzzz wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:57 amThe point was that Waters isn't referring to AHM when he talks about being bored with what they were playing (the comment is prompted by discussing the recent dropping of 'Interstellar').
"It always comes out as so odd because of the problems of rehearsing musicians, it’s like everybody throwing their lump of clay at the wall, and seeing what it looks like when it’s happened."

They only performed the suite with a choir and brass section a handful of times, and that's what he was referring to. They played a stripped-down version as a four-piece many, many more times, well into 1972.

"If somebody said to me now: 'Right...here's a million pounds, go out and play 'Atom Heart Mother,' I'd say: 'You must be fucking joking...I'm not playing that rubbish!'" - Roger, 1984
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:25 pm
space triangle wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:10 pmLyrics on the 'Summer '68' deals with the same topic as a few other of Ricks Pink Floyd songs - his meeting with a groupies.
It is Rick's only song about meeting with a groupie.
Summer 68 and Stay
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:10 am Agreed - the list of Gilmour and Wright's lyrics is short, but nearly all of them are among my personal favorites. Waters' writing really didn't catch up to theirs til '72.
I think many observers of pre-Dark Side PF would say that Waters wrote a lot of good songs in that era despite his musical limitations, and certainly wasn't 'behind' the others in this respect. Clearly you don't agree, though you do seem to have a rather unique perspective regarding Waters generally which I suppose should be taken into account when reading your (many) posts about him.
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:54 pm
space triangle wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:40 pmOn this picture, they look like a duo who loved to write together.
They were probably just rehearsing "Grandchester Meadows".
It's from the Obscured sessions isn't it? So one of the times they might have been coming up with something together.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:25 pm It is Rick's only song about meeting with a groupie.
penguinzzz wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:38 am Summer 68 and Stay
Roger wrote the lyrics to "Stay"; Rick wrote the music.
penguinzzz wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:38 amI think many observers of pre-Dark Side PF would say that Waters wrote a lot of good songs in that era despite his musical limitations, and certainly wasn't 'behind' the others in this respect.
"If", "Summer '68", and "Fat Old Sun" are all good songs.

"If" was the 18th song Roger wrote.

"Summer '68" was the 4th song Rick wrote.

"Fat Old Sun" was the 2nd song Dave wrote.

Lyrically, they were the best post-Barrett songs up to that point, as much as I personally like "Paintbox", "Julia Dream", "Green is the Colour", and "Embryo". Neither Dave nor Rick had any interest in writing about fictional situations, and they were both much more focused on developing musical textures. Had either of them felt more compelled to express themselves lyrically, and worked through it the way that Roger did, they would certainly have written great songs, but their sound would likely not have evolved into what you hear on Meddle and Dark Side of the Moon. "If" may as well have been the 6th song Roger wrote; if Dave had been responsible for "Point Me at the Sky", fans would argue that he should never write lyrics again.
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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mosespa wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:56 amThey two songs do seem to share the theme of letting time slip away from you while you're busy doing other things.
According to the official music video 'Childhood's End' could have a lot to do with The Vietnam War and protest against it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnTz09-nk9c
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Re: My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

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space triangle wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:13 pmAccording to the official music video 'Childhood's End' could have a lot to do with The Vietnam War and protest against it.
Unless you know what you're looking at, because a lot of that is Northern Ireland in the early '70s.