Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Discussions about Pink Floyd and Solo Official Album CDs and DVDs.

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dj865
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by dj865 »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:22 pm
Delving into new technology is as much the theme of the album as anything else, but there are two songs that I think may have influenced "A New Machine":

https://youtu.be/lJ71NUL9Cp4

https://youtu.be/S39NaDPNDtk
Thanks for that...the Laurie Anderson track took me back about 40 years to a time when I was about 3 years old. I forgot this existed! A nice bit of nostalgia, wow!

Anyway, it doesn't make me like the sound of a New Machine any more haha! To me, it always makes me think this is David trying to do something "angsty" sounding to try and give a Roger vibe or something, but failing miserably. I have grown to appreciate the album a bit more lately but a New Machine always takes me out of it!
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

dj865 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:38 pm To me, it always makes me think this is David trying to do something "angsty" sounding to try and give a Roger vibe or something, but failing miserably.
It's really no different than "Childhood's End", "No Way", or "Near the End".

Compact Disc Magazine, 1992: Do you think your being the only vocalist in Pink Floyd works, and can work as a rule? A cynic could say that your highly processed vocals on 'A New Machine' are an attempt to sound eccentric and shrill, perhaps like Waters at his more theatric, trying to create variety.

DG: Would you say so? I don't know. I don't think so. I mean, I sang Money, that's fairly strident. I sang most of the early stuff on Meddle, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here. It's never occurred to me to think about that. I think it's harder to sit through a whole album of Roger's voice than of mine. I always felt our two voices worked very well as counterpoints, but we don't have that option, so...
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by battra »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:54 pm DG: Would you say so? I don't know. I don't think so. I mean, I sang Money, that's fairly strident. I sang most of the early stuff on Meddle, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here. It's never occurred to me to think about that. I think it's harder to sit through a whole album of Roger's voice than of mine. I always felt our two voices worked very well as counterpoints, but we don't have that option, so...
As a vocalist Roger compares to Dave as well as Dave compares to Roger as a lyricist.

Each of them play very well but that's why those two were so good for each other. Dave did what Roger lacked and vice versa.

Then you add in a couple three tracks and album with Roger on vocals...and you break the ear fatigue...and you've got absolute magic.

One thing I always wondered though, with Roger gone, why didn't Rick sing more? (For Reason, I mean, obviously...)
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

battra wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:34 pmAs a vocalist Roger compares to Dave as well as Dave compares to Roger as a lyricist.
I feel like it comes back to this every time, and that I sound like a broken record, but this was really only true up to and including The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking.

Nothing Roger wrote after that point (which was mostly written years earlier) compares to his prior work, and while some of his later songs have great moments, they are few and far between.

David declined to sing a number of songs that he didn't personally like or agree with, by Roger and others, and given the evolution of Roger's writing, I don't hear anything there that would've interested him anyway - so it's really funny that Roger pointed out parts of Momentary Lapse and said he wished he would've had some of that music to work with; meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Dave, Nick, and Rick never mentioned anything he did from KAOS onward in any context.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by DarkSideFreak »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:46 amDavid declined to sing a number of songs that he didn't personally like or agree with, by Roger and others, and given the evolution of Roger's writing, I don't hear anything there that would've interested him anyway - so it's really funny that Roger pointed out parts of Momentary Lapse and said he wished he would've had some of that music to work with; meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Dave, Nick, and Rick never mentioned anything he did from KAOS onward in any context.
You have quite a way of summing up some of the main PF conundrums!

I'm sure there were times where David thought "I need a writer" (and he used different writers to help him with lyrics, so fair game), but I'm not sure he was interested in the kind of writing that Roger had gotten into starting from TFC onwards.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by battra »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:46 am
battra wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:34 pmAs a vocalist Roger compares to Dave as well as Dave compares to Roger as a lyricist.
I feel like it comes back to this every time, and that I sound like a broken record, but this was really only true up to and including The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking.

Nothing Roger wrote after that point (which was mostly written years earlier) compares to his prior work, and while some of his later songs have great moments, they are few and far between.

David declined to sing a number of songs that he didn't personally like or agree with, by Roger and others, and given the evolution of Roger's writing, I don't hear anything there that would've interested him anyway - so it's really funny that Roger pointed out parts of Momentary Lapse and said he wished he would've had some of that music to work with; meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Dave, Nick, and Rick never mentioned anything he did from KAOS onward in any context.
Again, you're talking about four of the greatest records ever to be recorded as what Roger couldn't compete with later on in his career.

Dave didn't do anything up to that standard either.

No one did.

As for Roger's lyrics, no, nothing compares to Time, the Wall, etc, but to a word, Roger did better than Dave and Polly for the next 40 years.

Whereas, Dave sang better than Roger to a word than Dave.

So, the idea that Roger's latter days albums don't compare favorably to the best of the best is a lot like saying, Well, sure Wayne Gretzky...oh..wait you're from Pittsburgh.

It's a lot like saying, sure Super Mario scored 122 points in 96-97, but he didn't do as well as his best work when he got 199 in 88-89, therefore, I'm going to speak ill of him leading the league in points because he's done better.

When you have to compare Roger to Roger when the comparison is Dave to Roger...

I think it's quite telling.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by battra »

DarkSideFreak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:31 pm
ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:46 amDavid declined to sing a number of songs that he didn't personally like or agree with, by Roger and others, and given the evolution of Roger's writing, I don't hear anything there that would've interested him anyway - so it's really funny that Roger pointed out parts of Momentary Lapse and said he wished he would've had some of that music to work with; meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Dave, Nick, and Rick never mentioned anything he did from KAOS onward in any context.
You have quite a way of summing up some of the main PF conundrums!

I'm sure there were times where David thought "I need a writer" (and he used different writers to help him with lyrics, so fair game), but I'm not sure he was interested in the kind of writing that Roger had gotten into starting from TFC onwards.
Thank you.

This is what I've been saying.

Roger's lyrics are better than Dave's (and Polly's for that matter) but Dave's singing is better than Roger's.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by DarkSideFreak »

battra wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:46 pmWhen you have to compare Roger to Roger when the comparison is Dave to Roger...

I think it's quite telling.
The point that Roger had something positive to say about one of the three PF albums made without him, whereas his own solo work was roundly ignored by the remaining band, isn't touched by this, though?

I think ZiggyZipgun has summed up pretty well why it's ludicrous to suggest that PF would have continued to be totally amazing had Roger stayed on board, and frankly I'm also tired of this narrative.

How many of Roger's post-Floyd lyrics would have fit well to a PF album, assuming it would've been somewhat democratic? Three Wishes is one that comes to my mind. That's not to say I dislike everything he's written in his solo career, but it's loquacious and mostly unsubtle.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

battra wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:46 pmDave didn't do anything up to that standard either.

No one did.
I'm not comparing Roger and Dave to only their greatest albums - The Final Cut and Pros and Cons were both beautifully written and effective. But as a whole, those two were not as well received by Pink Floyd fans as Momentary Lapse, Division Bell, On An Island, or Rattle That Lock. Gilmour has continued to make thoroughly enjoyable music without pandering to the tens of millions of people who only own Dark Side of the Moon. Waters has continued making albums that only his diehard fans could love, and has stayed relevant by performing his greatest hits for the last 20 years.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by battra »

DarkSideFreak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:49 pm
battra wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:46 pmWhen you have to compare Roger to Roger when the comparison is Dave to Roger...

I think it's quite telling.
The point that Roger had something positive to say about one of the three PF albums made without him, whereas his own solo work was roundly ignored by the remaining band, isn't touched by this, though?

I think ZiggyZipgun has summed up pretty well why it's ludicrous to suggest that PF would have continued to be totally amazing had Roger stayed on board, and frankly I'm also tired of this narrative.

How many of Roger's post-Floyd lyrics would have fit well to a PF album, assuming it would've been somewhat democratic? Three Wishes is one that comes to my mind. That's not to say I dislike everything he's written in his solo career, but it's loquacious and mostly unsubtle.
I'm not surprised Roger had something to say about the albums, and I personally think that they'd have been improved by his involvement.

But, I don't think my analogy that you're trying to turn around on me works in this instance.

As someone who thinks Pros and Cons > A Momentary Lapse of Reason and that Amused To Death > The Division Bell, I'd say they'd have continued to be awesome had Roger stayed.

Roger's post PF lyrics aren't that different from the golden era of Pink Floyd to me...when he wrote all the lyrics.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by battra »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:59 pm
battra wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:46 pmDave didn't do anything up to that standard either.

No one did.
I'm not comparing Roger and Dave to only their greatest albums - The Final Cut and Pros and Cons were both beautifully written and effective. But as a whole, those two were not as well received by Pink Floyd fans as Momentary Lapse, Division Bell, On An Island, or Rattle That Lock. Gilmour has continued to make thoroughly enjoyable music without pandering to the tens of millions of people who only own Dark Side of the Moon. Waters has continued making albums that only his diehard fans could love, and has stayed relevant by performing his greatest hits for the last 20 years.
I seem to have misunderstood you.

"Nothing Roger wrote after that point (which was mostly written years earlier) compares to his prior work, and while some of his later songs have great moments, they are few and far between."

Is This The Life We Really Want and Amused to Death are better than anything Roger did apart from The Wall, Dark Side of the Moon, Animals, and Wish You Were Here.

Can you explain your analogy to me as I'm missing something here.

Now, moving on, I would argue, playing Dark Side of the Moon front to back was pandering to the folks who only own Dark Side of the Moon, but that's just me.

As for making albums that only his die hard fans could love whilst making money by pandering, totally agree and I love him for that. Hear me out.

I buy albums. Give me those rough edged records. I'm going to listen to those way more than I'm going to spend at a concert.

As for Dave, I love his first solo record and I love his third. The second and fourth...eh...it's kind of like reverse Star Trek movies.

But, like with MOST bands who've undergone creative divorces, their best work is still the work they did together. I think we can all agree on that.

Now, if ya wanna talk pandering about Roger...let's put the shoe on the other foot shall we?

Well, I'm not going to say what I'd planned...because I was wrong. :)
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

battra wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:36 pm Can you explain your analogy to me as I'm missing something here.
I don't believe I used any analogies; you're the one making irrelevant references to Star Trek and professional sports.

Again, full performances of Dark Side of the Moon on the '94 tour were not in the original plan, and as far as I have read, were not advertised as such. Their setlist already included most of it, so they brought it all together by the end of the tour to finally have an official live recording of it. Roger even turned down an invitation to join them for those performances, while publicly criticizing them for playing old favorites. A decade later, he carried out a full-blown Dark Side of the Moon tour featuring no new material. He followed that with a full-blown Wall tour featuring no new material. Please see the Is This the Life and related threads where I shared his comments regarding his minimal involvement with the creation and production of that album and its "throwaway" songs.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by theaussiefloydian »

battra wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:36 pm As for Dave, I love his first solo record and I love his third. The second and fourth...eh...it's kind of like reverse Star Trek movies.
Strange analogy, though one I do understand. And this is something that is mostly down to personal taste so I'm not going to try and say you're objectively right or wrong. But I will personally maintain that I reckon About Face and Rattle That Lock are a little hard done by, just as I'll also say that for odd numbered Star Trek films (with the exception of The Final Frontier, which is just pretty terrible).
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by Yucateco »

ZiggyZipgun wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:59 pm Gilmour has continued to make thoroughly enjoyable music without pandering to the tens of millions of people who only own Dark Side of the Moon.
I must have somehow missed those albums with enjoyable music.
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Re: Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Post by ZiggyZipgun »

battra wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:36 pmI buy albums. Give me those rough edged records. I'm going to listen to those way more than I'm going to spend at a concert.
Well according to Roger, you don't buy enough of his albums to make it worth his while to perform them. He considered touring Amused to Death after it was released, but only "if it sold between three to four million worldwide. I'd have to feel sure in my own mind that there was enough interest." Yes, he was in a bad place, and had been let down by fans, and had hemorrhaged money since leaving the band, but he never considered moving forward on a scale more proportionate to his fanbase - he just stopped making albums for the next quarter of a century. The timeline is interesting, because artists made less and less from album sales through the 1990s, and more and more from ticket sales. Gilmour repeatedly turned down huge amounts of money to continue touring after Pulse was released, with even Roger trying to get him onboard with a full tour after Live 8, which he promptly shot down.

"Well, sometime, like, two winters ago I thought of touring, you know doing a few gigs in Europe and I'd sort of decided not to, when Formula One, you know, the motor racing organization in France, decided they wanted a gig at the same time as the Grand Prix. They called up different agencies, asked if Pink Floyd would play Dark Side of the Moon, and they got told, "No, they won't." And so they said, "Well what about Roger Waters, would he come and play Dark Side of the Moon?" And so they approached me and I was very surprised and I thought about it for a bit and I thought "Well why not?" I think it's a great piece of music and I hadn't played it since 1974. So I thought about it and I said, well, you know, "What are the numbers?" And they came up with a big number and I said, "Well, maybe we could."
Yucateco wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:25 amI must have somehow missed those albums with enjoyable music.
Sorry about your luck. Even on Gilmour's last two tours, less than half of the show was Roger-era material, even though they could've fit several more songs in place of "Sorrow" and "High Hopes", but at the shows I attended, those two songs got the same reaction as "Shine On You Crazy Diamond".