Gothic Metal (not a necessary or even logical label, actually!)

[Eclipse]

Hey mates, here's a thread about one of the most interesting genres of music (i don't care for genres, for me it's all music, but you have to organize/reference your favorite bands somehow, right?) that i have come across - gothic metal. First, i don't think Nightwish is the most representative/best band of this genre, they are much more mainstream so people tend to hate other much better acts like Tristania because they think they and all other goth metal bands sound like Nightwish. I like Nightwish, but not as much as other gothic metal bands, to name a few, Tristania, Sirenia and The Sins of thy Beloved. These three bands in my opinion contain unique musical moments, don't expect hit songs of pop tracks (no prejudice against more friendly music, but i'm trying to make the point clear that they don't sound like Nightwish, so you'll hardly listen a song like "Wish I Had An Angel" in any of the albums of those three bands above). Those three bands are more about atmospheres, musical journey to different ambiences, with of course the usual metal approach, but in a much softer way than those death metal bands, and a not cheesy way like some of those power metal ones.

Tristania is my favorite for many reasons, the songs are usually long and some have different sections (so, being a prog fan, this makes it a plus for me). I'm not saying Tristania is prog, but they certainly would deserve that classification much more than Nightwish, which is i-don't-get-why in progarchives. Anyway, Tristania's albums are all great in their own way, the first one, Widow's Weeds, has a melancholic medieval atmosphere (which is present in the Sins of Thy Beloved ones' too), violins, moving moments, 3 amazing vocalists: a female one, not operatic as Nightwish's though, a clean male one and a harsh one growling, but it's not stupid growling, with spitting and all that stuff, it's very well done actually. The second one, Beyond the Veil, has a very doomy atmosphere and is very complex. The others are amazing too.

Sirenia is kind of another Tristania, because it was founded when Morten left the band so both are kind of twin bands, their first two albums are great (the debut is more at the friendly music side mixed with complexity, very balanced, great album), i haven't heard their third but i guess i'll like it too.

The Sins of Thy Beloved is more dreamy and slow, and may take some time to get into, but they are great and have amazing musicianship as the two bands above, with great arrangements and an unique atmosphere. The violin solos are stunning!



Well, any comments in this genre/bands, which aren't Nightwish clones at all and are VERY different from the in this same sentence mentioned band?

[Eclipse]

no one into

[PublicImage]

I prefer King Crimson.

[mosespa]

I'd rather listen to Culture Club.

[Eclipse]

King Crimson are cool too

I'd rather listen to Culture Club.

Which gothic metal bands did you listen to?

OK i respect your opinion.

[Syd'sSexy]

I'd rather listen to Culture Club.

Where's the antidote! I feel a sudden wave of inexplicable nausea coming on!

I rather enjoy King Crimson. Terrific band. To this day, In The Court of the Crimson King and Larks' Tongue in Aspic remain two of my favourite albums of all time. So there.

[mosespa]

Maybe I'm just being a snob, but I didn't listen to ANY Gothic Metal bands.

I don't have to in order to know that (IMO) this is just a bad idea.

Metal is bad enough by itself...but throw in the overused Goth element and what have you got?

Ridiculously downtuned guitars going "Chu-chu-churrrrrrrrl" while the "singer" either mimics what Dio might sound like on acid or what Cookie Monster might sound like with throat cancer.

Or am I confusing this with another kind of music?

[Eclipse]

Maybe I'm just being a snob, but I didn't listen to ANY Gothic Metal bands.

I don't have to in order to know that (IMO) this is just a bad idea.

Metal is bad enough by itself...but throw in the overused Goth element and what have you got?

Ridiculously downtuned guitars going "Chu-chu-churrrrrrrrl" while the "singer" either mimics what Dio might sound like on acid or what Cookie Monster might sound like with throat cancer.

Or am I confusing this with another kind of music?

I just think that you stating your own opinions towards a genre of music (which you haven't listened to) as pure facts, and forgetting that music as an art has to be entirely interpreted by the listener, so saying metal is bad for example would be correct if you wrote "metal is bad for me". But how can something that pleases millions of people, who appreciate this kind of art, a bad thing? It certainly may be for you, but saying the genre is bad as if being bad is a internal characteristic of it is wrong.

Just to make the gothic metal scene more clear, it is not mindless grownling or unecessary sound violence. The music has its good dose of beauty, it is much more melodic than the usual metal band, and the usage of acoustic instrumentals plus female voices add a lot to the softness of it.

Those bands are in a section of their own in the metal scene, but then you haven't listened to it, so i still suggest to you at least Tristania, but then if you prefer thinking that a gothic metal has to be bad like many people more into the classic rock sound or other genres think without even making their own point by actually listening to them, then it is just your way of thinking and i won't waste my energies trying to convince on how good this very artistic and beautiful (and melodic) side of metal is. At least i'm able to enjoy it without any prejudice against metal music!


A kind of music is a kind of art, so the fact it is bad or not is just on the listener's own view, and it's not a characteristic of the music genre itself, i can't stand Duran Duran, but it pleases so many people, so how can it be bad? Same thing applies to any kind of metal.

Peace.

[mosespa]

Pedophilia seems to please many people.

So...how can one say it's bad?

To me, Metal music (in just about any form that isn't TOOL) is an expression of regression. It's about brute force and while it can contain intellect, it's usually about obliterating the intellect underneath the mighty fist...or some shit like that.

I've stated in another thread that I consider metal to be nothing more than an appalling display of hubris.

How can I consider it bad if it pleases so many people? Because I consider the people that metal pleases to be "beneath me" on the intellectual scale (sorry if that pisses off any of my friends, who may consider themselves the exceptions to the rule.)

That's how.

[Eclipse]

Pedophilia seems to please many people.

This forced comparison is not valid since pedophilia is not an art.

To me, Metal music (in just about any form that isn't TOOL) is an expression of regression. It's about brute force and while it can contain intellect, it's usually about obliterating the intellect underneath the mighty fist...or some shit like that.

I've stated in another thread that I consider metal to be nothing more than an appalling display of hubris.

Well that's YOUR opinion and i fully respect that, even though i disagree with it.

How can I consider it bad if it pleases so many people? Because I consider the people that metal pleases to be "beneath me" on the intellectual scale (sorry if that pisses off any of my friends, who may consider themselves the exceptions to the rule.)

That's how.

Someone who listens metal is beneath you on the intellectual scale?

There's much other less subjective things involved to judge someone's intellect rather than a musical taste IMO, but then at least this time you used the verb "consider" saying clearly that this is just your opinion. Which i again fully disagree.

[mosespa]

This forced comparison is not valid since pedophilia is not an art.

Sorry, didn't know we were discussing art.

I thought we were talking about the connection between a thing pleasing people and whether or not that makes it valid.

Sorry...we're discussing art?

I stand by my comment. If you want to discuss art, well...abstract impressionism displeases many people, so how can anyone consider it good?

Or is reversing the perspective of the argument somehow invalid now?

EDIT: I sense that your justification is based in the collectivist notion that "if many people like it, it must be good."

This is flawed thinking. I'll say it again:

The majority of German's elected Hitler. This proves that the majority is not always right.

Numbers do not impress me.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Sure, they may have power due to their numbers...but they're still stupid.

To use a couple of well worn platitudes:

There IS strength is numbers...but might does not make right.

[Eclipse]

This forced comparison is not valid since pedophilia is not an art.

Sorry, didn't know we were discussing art.

I thought we were talking about the connection between a thing pleasing people and whether or not that makes it valid.

Sorry...we're discussing art?

I stand by my comment. If you want to discuss art, well...abstract impressionism displeases many people, so how can anyone consider it good?

Under the context of this discussion about Metal which is a genre of music therefore a kind of art, yes we are discussing art. About the impressionism thing, well not everyone seems to like say, Zeuhl, a craaaazy music genre, but it is *NOT WISE* (even how much completely amazingly intellectual you are ) to judge it as BAD, because the quality of art is a very subjective matter, your appreciation will come a lot from the inside of you.

EDIT: I sense that your justification is based in the collectivist notion that "if many people like it, it must be good."

This is flawed thinking.

For ART it is valid, so everyone but you would have bad taste on music because they like metal? I love prog, and few people like it. Did i ever say prog is bad? See, i don't agree with the majority, but that kind of music seems to touch many people, and that's a pretty effective thing for art IMO.

The majority of German's elected Hitler. This proves that the majority is not always right.

Numbers do not impress me.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Sure, they may have power due to their numbers...but they're still stupid.

To use a couple of well worn platitudes:

There IS strength is numbers...but might does not make right.

Ah i'm not a slave of the majority consensus, fortunately. Thanks for reminding me this though!

[fatoldbob]

In general, can we decide as a group to refrain from discussing pedophilia in any context?

This can be a painful subject for many.

[mosespa]

Bob...my bad, dude. I'm the one who introduced it, so I'll be the one to apologize. I like to use extremes because it really seems to make people think about what they're talking about.

Well...if they're worth talking to, anyway

Eclipse:

"Bad" and "Good" are largely subjective terms, as I see it. What one person thinks of as "bad," another person may think of as "good." I DO agree that there are certain..."moral absolutes," for lack of a better term; but when it comes to the wisdom of judging something as "good" or "bad," I think you and I may disagree.

I think of judgement as a moral imperative. If you do not judge against something, then you might as well cast your judgement for it.

I think of certain types of music (for example) as "bad" because they hold zero value for me. Anything which does not hold a value for me cannot be "good," therefore, it must be "bad."

I apply this line of thinking to many things...people included. If there is no positive that I can ascertain within a person, I cannot judge them as "good." They hold no positive that I can tell. The Good is more than the absence of The Negative. It is the presence of the Positive.

If a person holds no positive that I can see, then they are of no value to me...ergo, they are not (shall we say) as "worthy" to me as someone in whom I can ascertain at least one positive.

And yes, I do know people who contain zero positive that I can ascertain.

Now...here's my question:

Why should the manner in which I judge people (or things) be important to anyone other than myself?

[oz1701]

i've tried Nightwish and i am afraid i just feel its a terrible waste of a great voice.

Tobias Samiet is pretty good though im not sure you could classify Aventasia as gothic metal