Richard Wright - Fired During Recording The Wall Album

[Kerry King]

It was also their first album without Dee Palmer

Right. Another significant, missing ingredient. John Glascock was also sorely missed, just as he had been on much of Stormwatch.

Thanks for the video.

[DarkSideFreak]

Just a question:

Where is Rick's contributions to The Wall? I've always wondered this but just never took the time to analyze the music closely enough. I can always distinguish Dave and Roger but where is Rick's voice? I think he is on "The Show Must Go On" right? Anywhere else? And what keyboard playing is distinctively his?

The only bits that are distinctively his IMO... the solo on "Run Like Hell" and the electric piano on "Hey You".

For my view, I think it was hard to contribute music for what was an already heavy concept-driven piece; it would have been hard to advocate a several minutes long organ-lead solo for most of the songs. The general consensus of the band was that Rick wasn't pulling adequate weight, which suggests that was proberly true, but again, as Roger veered the ship towards concept pieces, Rick's songwriting weren't particually required, and may have felt he was being sidelined a bit. Also, I think that Roger's and Rick's personality differences came to a head, which may have lead as a catalyst in Roger saying he should leave the band.

This is the crux right here. Roger wrote 4 LPs worth of material while David and Rick did their solo material. It was bound to be skewed to one side. We can be happy that David, aside from co-writing "Young Lust", still had two unfinished ideas left over from his solo album, which turned into CN and RLH.

That said, there is an interview from way back when where somebody said (I forget who it was) that Rick was keeping his best pieces to himself at the time. No idea if there is much to it. Maybe he didn't want to argue with Roger (though he is on record as saying he didn't like the music that Roger put forth, because it was all in the same key, same tempo, etc.). Also, Roger wanted to have his lyrics upfront; with "Us and Them", a lot of listeners didn't really focus on the anti-war message because the music is so beautiful...

I take issue with your oversimplified definition of songwriting. It takes more than a tune and lyric to make a song.

Chords, for example, must be decided upon or else the song isn't complete. These chords determine which notes to use for the tune/harmony, etc.

2. Clare Torry wrote nothing. She sang a bunch of improvisations which were later comped together into the final track.

This is the legal definition of writing, NOT a personal interpretation as you kept insinuating, and then even went on to discredit as an error. (I don't necessarily agree with it but that's how it goes.) Look at jazz - countless tunes have been written over the changes of existing ones like "I Got Rhythm" and you never! give credit to the original writer. Manfred Mann gave credits to Harriet Schock for writing "Hollywood Town" but not "You Are - I Am", both songs are almost identical except for the melody.

If every singer who has done "Great Gig" after Clare is copying large parts of her improvisation, it's part of the song.

[ZiggyZipgun]

Chords, for example, must be decided upon or else the song isn't complete. These chords determine which notes to use for the tune/harmony, etc.

Wow, that's reaching all the way back in a fairly old thread but...yeah, I imagine your understanding of this has evolved in the meantime. Melodies are fairly unique, and most of those notes will be a particular scale, which then narrows down the choices for harmony to several keys or modes; those keys and modes determine whether each of the chords built from that scale are major, minor, diminished, half-diminished, augmented...but you're never limited to one key or mode! Any song written in a minor key can easily be played to the relative major key, drastically changing the tonality, but both chord progressions will likely have been used elsewhere countless times. One of the versions of "Careful With That Axe, Eugene" from the Zabriskie Point sessions was in the parallel key, as was "Nothing Part 14" from Reverber/ation. That's just the difference between arranging and songwriting.

[ZiggyZipgun]

2. Clare Torry wrote nothing. She sang a bunch of improvisations which were later comped together into the final track.

This is exactly how David Gilmour comes up with guitar solos in the studio. If it's an instrumental, that's the melody. Pretty sure he was credited on the Grammy-winning "Marooned".

[mosespa]

2. Clare Torry wrote nothing. She sang a bunch of improvisations which were later comped together into the final track.

This is exactly how David Gilmour comes up with guitar solos in the studio. If it's an instrumental, that's the melody. Pretty sure he was credited on the Grammy-winning "Marooned".

I don't see him credited on "Have A Cigar," though.

Or "Money."

Or "Pigs (Three Different Ones)"

I notice that people who play these songs live tend to try to recreate those solos. <<this was someone's argument as to why Ms. Torry should get the songwriting credit.

How long shall I go on before my point is made?

Also, I'm pretty sure he came up with more than just a guitar solo for "Marooned."

[ZiggyZipgun]

How long shall I go on before my point is made?

Those aren't instrumentals, are they?

[mosespa]

I take issue with your oversimplified definition of songwriting. It takes more than a tune and lyric to make a song.

Chords, for example, must be decided upon or else the song isn't complete. These chords determine which notes to use for the tune/harmony, etc.

2. Clare Torry wrote nothing. She sang a bunch of improvisations which were later comped together into the final track.

This is the legal definition of writing, NOT a personal interpretation as you kept insinuating, and then even went on to discredit as an error. (I don't necessarily agree with it but that's how it goes.) Look at jazz - countless tunes have been written over the changes of existing ones like "I Got Rhythm" and you never! give credit to the original writer. Manfred Mann gave credits to Harriet Schock for writing "Hollywood Town" but not "You Are - I Am", both songs are almost identical except for the melody.

If every singer who has done "Great Gig" after Clare is copying large parts of her improvisation, it's part of the song.

So...chord progressions are meaningless and Eddie Van Halen SHOULD, in your opinion, get a songwriting credit for "Lost Boys Calling?"

Melodies aren't as unique as people like to think they are.

[mosespa]

How long shall I go on before my point is made?

Those aren't instrumentals, are they?

I guess you missed the part where I said that people who play those songs live tend to lean towards recreating those solos?

Should I have put it in a larger font for you?

Edit: Fixed it for you.

[ZiggyZipgun]

If "Great Gig" had even one verse of sung lyrics, the songwriting credit for the music would go to whosoever happened to come up with the melody that those words were sung to, and not her improvised part. I didn't see her get any songwriting credits on Radio KAOS (not that I would own it, lol).

[ZiggyZipgun]

Or "Pigs (Three Different Ones)"

I notice that people who play these songs live tend to try to recreate those solos.

That's a very good example - even Roger imitates David's parts on that song, and doesn't have to pay 'im a thin dime!

[mosespa]

If "Great Gig" had even one verse of sung lyrics, the songwriting credit for the music would go to whosoever happened to come up with the melody that those words were sung to, and not her improvised part. I didn't see her get any songwriting credits on Radio KAOS (not that I would own it, lol).

Agreed, but since none of that ever happened, it's kind of a moot point you're bringing up here, isn't it?

I'm well aware that writing lyrics and writing a melody are not the same thing. *shrug*

[ZiggyZipgun]

I'm well aware that writing lyrics and writing a melody are not the same thing.

I think the part you're having trouble with is that songs and instrumentals are copyrighted differently, and in either case, chord progressions are not a factor at all.

Also, it's possible that no one will ever feel compelled to cover "Lost Boys Calling", and certainly not in Eddie's lifetime. (Too soon?)

[mosespa]

(Too soon?)

Not according to my world view.

[ZiggyZipgun]

Also, I'm pretty sure he came up with more than just a guitar solo for "Marooned."

Guitar World: How much of "Marooned" is improvised?

David Gilmour: Pretty much all of it. I probably took three or four passes at it and took the best bits out of each.

[Kerry King]

If "Great Gig" had even one verse of sung lyrics, the songwriting credit for the music would go to whosoever happened to come up with the melody that those words were sung to, and not her improvised part.

The songwriting credits went to wherever the ones who had the power to hand out songwriting credits wanted them to go. Period. I've explained this on the forum before. Other musicians who were involved can sue if they don't like it (and can afford it).