If Syd never left Pink Floyd

[ZiggyZipgun]

As for Wright wanting to do "serious" music...did he mean nonsense like Sysyphus?

Yes, actually. It was also Rick's idea for them to work separately on Ummagumma, but if those contributions (minus Roger's) had been arranged together, it would sound very much like "Atom Heart Mother Suite" and not far off from "Echoes". Again, it was only Atom Heart Mother's success that convinced the record label to allow them to do whatever they wanted going forward - the same label that had vetoed "Set the Controls" being put out as a single, but pressured them to release "It Would Be So Nice".

[Kerry King]

This brings up the question:
Is Sysyphus "serious" music? I picture Wright banging his elbows randomly on the piano with a lit joint in his mouth.

[ZiggyZipgun]

Compared to their previous repertoire, I'd argue that it is. Not that Rick didn't like Syd's songwriting, since he would've split off to continue working with him if he was more reliable, but he was being pressured by the record company to write songs like Syd's - they all were. Without "Sysyphus" and "Celestial Voices", we wouldn't have "Echoes" or "Shine On". Without "Grandchester Meadows" we wouldn't have...um, The Final Cut. But we can't always get what we want.

[Kerry King]

Without "Sysyphus" and "Celestial Voices", we wouldn't have "Echoes" or "Shine On"

I disagree. Without hashish we wouldn't have Echoes. Without Syd Barrett (and Gilmour's "mistake") we wouldn't have Shine On.

Without Sysyphus we wouldn't have The Grand Vizier's Garden Party.

[ZiggyZipgun]

I disagree. Without hashish we wouldn't have Echoes. Without Syd Barrett (and Gilmour's "mistake") we wouldn't have Shine On.

Without Sysyphus we wouldn't have The Grand Vizier's Garden Party.

The majority of "Echoes" is extremely similar to "Sysyphus, Part 2" and "The Narrow Way, Part 3". Roger then, once again, borrowed an existing poem to set to that music.

While Syd had wanted to use excerpts from Cautionary Tales to lead into his own verses on "Matilda Mother" (but was denied permission), Roger lifted just about all of "Set the Controls" from existing poems without citation. They performed "Echoes" a number of times before changing the first verse, and we don't know if it was because they were trying to distance themselves from "space rock" imagery, or because Rog was denied permission to use it.

[Kerry King]

The majority of "Echoes" is extremely similar to "Sysyphus, Part 2"

I don't hear it. What is the majority of Echoes anyway? Certainly not solo piano with slight classical leanings.

In an article titled "Mr Wright" (Disc and Music Echo, Feb 5, 1972) Caroline Boucher interviews Rick Wright and states that Echoes was developed out of 30 pieces of music. Wright says, "I think our best music comes from that method of working because, in a studio, everyone is throwing in ideas and rejecting ideas." We all know about Nothing-parts 1-24. Sysyphus part 2 is not mentioned.

[ZiggyZipgun]

The main piano passage that develops into the chord progression that forms the verses and choruses that open and close the piece. The chord progression itself if very similar to "The Narrow Way". I've also noticed that one of the main melodies in "Sysyphus, Part 2" sounds a lot like the brass arrangement on "Summer '68".

[ZiggyZipgun]

Shit, even the low melody that builds up into the third verse is awfully similar to "Sysyphus, Parts 1& 4".

Who wrote "Echoes"?

"Me?!"

It was your idea?

"Yes, the whole piano thing at the beginning and the chord structure for the song is mine, so I had a large part in writing that. But it's credited to other people, of course."

Mojo magazine, 2007

[Kerry King]

^ Wright sounding like Waters. In 1972 he credited the whole group. In 2007 he wants the bulk of credit.

Sysyphus is forgettable. Echoes is great.

[ZiggyZipgun]

I'd rather have one full album of Wright instrumentals in the vein of Ummagumma and Zabriskie Point than hear any "new" songs from Roger Waters.

[Kerry King]

Either way, Barrett moved beyond "psychedelic" music before pink floyd did. He stopped pandering to his audience as well.

[ZiggyZipgun]

You mean he stopped fulfilling contractual obligations at the direction of his employers? He sure did, though I'm not sure if The Soft Machine would agree with you about moving beyond psychedelia. At least Rick and Dave were there to play nearly all of the instruments on Barrett.

When does Roger's new greatest hits tour start?

[Kerry King]

^ You're asking me? I don't pay half the attention to Waters that you do. I'm not a fan.

Barrett and Madcap Laughs are hardly pandering. Soft Machine were also quite uncompromising.

"I don't think our sound has progressed"- Gilmour, Disc And Music Echo, Feb 21, 1970

[Kerry King]

"We've had to adopt a more professional attitude. People know about us now, and they know what to expect" -Rick Wright, Top Pops And Music Now, Sept 15, 1969

[ZiggyZipgun]

"I think we're ever so progressive, and evolve between every record." - David Gilmour, 1972