New Pink Floyd Album 'The Endless River'

[danielcaux]

Music for SOYCD was written collectively by Waters, Gilmour and Wright, where it was Gilmour who came up with the guitar theme.

A little correction, Gilmour just came up with the four note "Syd's theme", not the whole SOYCD musical theme. "Guitar theme" makes it sound like that, and gives the wrong impression that he wrote the whole thing. But just like you said, other than that there is no real evidence on who really wrote what melody part...

Again, music for WYWH was written by Gilmour and the whole thing just screams "Gilmour" all the way through. The song does feature lyrics which objectively rank among Waters' finest, but that does not earn him an extra credit for composition.

I also read somewhere a long time ago, don't remember where, that Roger came up with the song and the lyrics and Gilmour then wrote the famous guitar intro, not the whole melody and chords. Someone can confirm the source for that?

As for Waters having no musical talent or ear for melody... has anyone actually listened to the Wall demos? All the melodies were already there. What Gilmour and Writght put into the mix, at least on that album, was great arrangement and top notch solos. And I think 2 or 3 demos for songs. Of course there's no way to tell exactly who wrote what on the albums before that, but this whole myth that Waters was just the lyricist and conceptualist is totally ridiculous, the guy also wrote a lot of songs, which means he came with the guitar chords and vocal melodies for them, not just the lyrics. People get confused when he is referred as the "principal songwriter" and believe "songwriter" equals "just the lyrics". It does not.

There's a reason why Gilmour and Wright solo albums from the 70s suck, and it's not just the awful lyrics. The songs lack structure, musical tension and craft. Those three guys need each other as much as... I don't know... I'm not good at metaphore.

[raisemyrent]

All
Of the solo albums suck. Broken China has some cool tunes and soundscapes and so does amused to death (soundscapes and tease intros). Gilmour'sfirst album has cool bluesy tracks like no way and cry from the street but nothing to the level of fkoyd. Near the end is a brilliant track though. I like the pink fkoyd version of breakthrough too (from gilmour's dvd) and too bad mason wasn't there because it is a fkoyd track in all but name.

[Hudini]

None of the solo albums suck (with the possible exception of MFTB), but then again neither one is really great. Gilmour's first solo album might be the best of the bunch, with ATD coming close (though it has a few genuinely awful moments).

The point is Gilmour, Waters and Wright needed each other to make great music. Without the other guys, Waters is too self-absorbed and too keen on trying things he's not good at, Gilmour is too stiff and too restricted to his comfort zone, while Wright was bland and directionless for the most part of his solo career.

It doesn't matter who wrote what, they all gave their contributions without which their music wouldn't have been as half as good as we know it today. There are plenty of examples for that claim. Per instance, the demos for 'The Wall' and TPACOHH sounded practically the same and while 'The Wall' evolved into a great album (with Waters still retaining 90% of the writing credits) TPACOHH remained only a decent one at best. Not to mention TFC or AMLOR, neither of which really sounds like Pink Floyd.

To claim that Waters was the sole genius of Pink Floyd is unrealistic, to say the least. There are numerous examples where a key member of a successful band made an equally successful solo career but Roger Waters just isn't one of them. Had he really been the only decisive factor in making Pink Floyd one of the greatest bands ever, why doesn't his solo career reflect that then?

[Flathead]

As for Waters having no musical talent or ear for melody... has anyone actually listened to the Wall demos? All the melodies were already there.

Waters from 1969-1970 was a musical genius. He was the chief songwriter for a band that only has Bob Dylan and the Beatles as peers.

The Wall demos make it painfully clear who was the driving force behind the band. This guy was bleeding out his soul while Gilmour/Mason/Wright were living vacation lives.

What Gilmour and Writght put into the mix, at least on that album, was great arrangement and top notch solos. And I think 2 or 3 demos for songs. Of course there's no way to tell exactly who wrote what on the albums before that, but this whole myth that Waters was just the lyricist and conceptualist is totally ridiculous,

It's an easy and lazy narrative to latch onto.

the guy also wrote a lot of songs, which means he came with the guitar chords and vocal melodies for them, not just the lyrics. People get confused when he is referred as the "principal songwriter" and believe "songwriter" equals "just the lyrics". It does not.

Yep.

There's a reason why Gilmour and Wright solo albums from the 70s suck, and it's not just the awful lyrics. The songs lack structure, musical tension and craft. Those three guys need each other as much as... I don't know... I'm not good at metaphore.

TER river is a perfect example of lack of structure, tension and craft. And it's why it has one of the lowest Metacritic scores for a major act.

[Flathead]

The point is Gilmour, Waters and Wright needed each other to make great music. Without the other guys, Waters is too self-absorbed and too keen on trying things he's not good at, Gilmour is too stiff and too restricted to his comfort zone, while Wright was bland and directionless for the most part of his solo career.

Agreed.

To claim that Waters was the sole genius of Pink Floyd is unrealistic, to say the least. There are numerous examples where a key member of a successful band made an equally successful solo career but Roger Waters just isn't one of them. Had he really been the only decisive factor in making Pink Floyd one of the greatest bands ever, why doesn't his solo career reflect that then?

I think it's because he got hung up on concepts and lyrics, sort of lost in his own bubble, kept making mini-Walls instead of "If's" or "Set the Controls". I think if you had stuck him in a studio and said "no concept, and only a few lines of lyrics per song", he would have made something pretty awesome.

Ultimately, Pink Floyd died during Wish You Were Here. It was only Water's sheer drive and venom that carried them through two more masterpieces (Animals and the Wall). After that, the separate parts would show glimpses (High Hopes, It's a Miracle) but that was pretty much it.

They had a good run.

[Hudini]

I completely agree on this last post. And that about vacation lives.

[BertWW96]

This guy was bleeding out his soul while Gilmour/Mason/Wright were living vacation lives.

...It's an easy and lazy narrative to latch onto.

[raisemyrent]

That's a very good point. The band effort changed after wish you were here. I guess it's a bit of the what do you do when you've accompkished everything (DSOTM)? Go on holiday. Oh wait, release your best album (Wywh, arguably), and then go on holiday. I guess we should cut them a break that they stayed together for 3 more albums (and that Waters was on a roll) and that Gilmour revived it (even if AMLOR was trying too hard).

[mastaflatch]

This discussion took an interesting turn! One thing I just noticed is that musically speaking, the split made the remaining three better than they were when Waters was still there and on the opposite, Waters went musically from bad to worse both as a musician and as a composer (I'm not taking Ça Ira into account since I'm not familliar with it). And I'm saying that as someone who probably think that ATD is the next best album after The Final Cut.

Speaking of Ça Ira, is Waters the sole composer of its music, arrangements and all?

[raisemyrent]

the short answer would be no, simply because the folks that perform those kinds of things go off a score, which Waters probably couldn't write for all the parts. To what extent he wrote melodies, chord sequences, arrangements, etc. with the tools available to him and to what extent someone else might have expanded on that is a mystery to me (symphonic metallica lol it can be done). I've listened to very little of it and it sounded like Waters solo stuff to me, so my money says he wrote the basic parts of what I heard.

[Hudini]

the short answer would be no, simply because the folks that perform those kinds of things go off a score, which Waters probably couldn't write for all the parts.

With the technology available today, everyone with a basic ability on a musical instrument such as keyboards or guitar and an even more basic knowledge of musical theory can write complex arrangements using various software solutions. Today not only that you don't need to be an accomplished musician to compose but you don't even have to be musically literate. Back in the day I used to dabble in music, I often wrote percussion arrangements in complex time signatures for the drummer I played with, even though I could barely play 4/4 on the drums myself. I can't imagine why Roger Waters couldn't do the same, especially because he is known for writing a handful of songs in some interesting time signature patterns and definitely had access to more advance technology than I did anyway.

[mastaflatch]

I was bringing this up in the perspective of Waters being tightfist with credits. With a bit of bad faith, one could suppose that he hired a ghost-composer for his first proper opera.

[Hudini]

Well, according to Discogs credits listing, the arrangements were made by Rick Wentworth and Roger Waters, in that particular order. I wasn't particularly acquainted with Wentworth's work so I googled it a bit and it appears that he is most notable for being a film scores conductor. So Waters did have a professional working for him and even gave him a proper credit.

[omeaeol]

With a bit of bad faith, one could suppose that he hired a ghost-composer for his first proper opera.

If it had been the case, Ca Ira would sound a lot better. (I think a critic nailed it by saying that Roger's opera sounds like a Webber musical - minus the melody...)

[mastaflatch]

With a bit of bad faith, one could suppose that he hired a ghost-composer for his first proper opera.

If it had been the case, Ca Ira would sound a lot better. (I think a critic nailed it by saying that Roger's opera sounds like a Webber musical - minus the melody...)

Ouch, that must have hurt