What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been like?

General discussion about Pink Floyd.
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What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been like?

Post by SurrogateMember » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:10 pm

As we all know, this and The Endless River are the only albums which the Floyd didn't tour in support of, mainly because they couldn't stand each other, and there wasn't any way they could top the The Wall tour. So, instead of touring, Gilmour and Waters recorded solo albums during '83 and toured for them in the next year. That begs us the question: what if they had toured in '83? Who would be the accompaining musicians? The setlist/props? Would it actually be any good?

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by SurrogateMember » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:11 pm

At least to me, as a self-conscious Waters fanboy, it would be fantastic.

Regarding the backdrop projections and other things they were famous for, it would have been pretty much like the Pros and Cons tour, with some props, but not nearly as much as The Wall, with a lot of film going on behind the band (of the video EP and all) and such.

Setlist-wise, it would have probably been TFC as a whole as the first set, and some of their best known stuff as set two, as well as a two song encore, ending with Comfortably Numb. The audiences would be bored to death during the first half, but Waters would still insist on it.

About the touring band, my best bets would be Tim Renwick on guitar/bass (he played on the PACOHH tour and with Gilmour-led Floyd as well), Michael Kamen on keys (played on the TFC album and PACOHH tour), Andy Bown on organ/bass (played on Wall tour, TFC and PACOHH) and Andy Newmark on drums (played on TFC/PACOHH tour), with the two Not Now John backing singers and Raphael Ravenscroft (played on TFC and Gilmour's '84 band), with the three main members doing their obvious parts.

A great spectacle, at least in my head :lol:

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Jimi Dean Barrett » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:28 pm

The main thing about TFC for me is they tried to bring in new keyboard players as opposed to the obvious route of being more guitar orientated.
Not full on electrics, just a sideman bought in on bass so Roger could strum his acoustic while Dave want and played lead.
A more stripped down Floyd, so I'd imagine smaller theatres for more intimate shows. But then given that was suggested and knocked back by Roger as "Won't that be boring?" (According to that long BBC documentary) it's easier to see why the album never toured.
They didn't have to play the album in full like they did for other albums. But a sort of halfway house between the mammoth spectacle of The Wall shows and the large AMLOR tours. Something in the middle.
Of course it wasn't going to happen due to breakdowns in trust and appreciation in the band.
But you aren't alone! It's my biggest Floyd "What if?..." of all a TFC tour!

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by vizor » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:59 pm

As Kurt Loder said in his Rolling Stone review, TFC is "a Roger Waters solo album all in but name".

We know how his follow-up solo albums, including the latest one, panned out, so why Jones for something that would have been less than what Pink Floyd was when he was in it?

He was great in his prime, and with no dignity, he trashed his career in attempt to destroy the others. Lucky for us, he lost big-time enough for the musicians of the group to reform, record and perform Pink Floyd music with all sorts of honors in which to entertain us. Including TER, which they had kept and stored recorded improvs needed to produce their post Waters albums. Too bad Waters didn't have the foresight during the Animals and before albums, which would have rendered a decent amount of bonus features to the woeful releases of those albums since their initial release. Dream not of what TFC Tour might have been like, and wonder what could have been if the mid-30's Waters had behaved himself and evolved with the rest of the band. :?:

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Hadrian » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:08 pm

First of all, it's a shame regarding The Endless River. While I do understand Gilmour's point that going on a tour without Wright would be awkward, they could've also honored the material he co-created by touring with it, i.e. by dedicating the whole tour to him (I twist things around here, I know - but, one way or another, it's all just a matter of perspective). Moreover, in 2015, that TER tour would've been a 50 years tour for the band.

I am sure that the TER album material would breathe on a live stage and continue to evolve like it did each time in the past, even with Gilmour and Mason as the only actual band members. Alas, we'll never know (btw, I noticed that Gilmour is omitting TER material entirely on his solo concerts as well - another unused potential avenue for it to grow).

The Final Cut tour in 1983 - they would've played the entire album as a concert set (just like they did with the previous 4 studio albums). There would've been a video material playing in the background, essentially an album-long version of the associated video EP that came out on VHS in 1983. I am not sure what the second set and encore would comprise of, but my educated guess would be a mixed bag of 'best of' stuff from the last 4 studio albums (so it would've been "The Final Cut" / "Best of" tour - making everyone somewhat happy at the end of it all).

What I am surprised about is that Roger Waters never did this on his own, playing the album in its entirety as a concert set on one of his solo tours.

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Luca » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:49 am

What I am surprised about is that Roger Waters never did this on his own, playing the album in its entirety as a concert set on one of his solo tours.

He couldn't sing the whole album live. And also could not sing part of pros and cons (running shoes, go fishing, every strangers eyes), but in that case he had something to prove to others and himself. I'm a big fan of Waters (never listen to About Face or DG), but his vocal abilities didn't allow a complete performance of TFC.

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Hadrian » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Interesting. I never thought of that one. That would be a technical reason for not doing it. I always considered other, political reasons - band related, or general - to be the culprit, but none of them were ever entirely convincing.

I wrote about this somewhere on the forum already, but Roger Water's The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking solo tour in 1984-85 would've been a perfect avenue for concurrently promoting The Final Cut album. TFC was still only a year old, and without any live promotion. To my mind, the logical thing for Roger to do there was Set 1: The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking (the entire album), Set 2: The Final Cut (the entire album), Encore: Old Pink* (as Roger calls a live mix of older Pink Floyd numbers). Moreover, if such a tour was filmed and released on home video, I suspect that it would be a quite a historical seller by now.

*It was a brilliant plan to bring Eric Clapton on board (...as 'surrogate Dave'...), for both The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking album and its subsequent tour. Unfortunately, Waters never really allowed him to play on the record, a fantastic missed opportunity. I have not seen the shows with Clapton so I am not entirely sure on this, but I have not encountered any evidence that Waters and Clapton reworked some of the "Old Pink" repertoire to let Clapton's personal style and individual guitar work shine on that particular material. That would've been a great concert video/live album in itself - Eric Clapton playing Pink Floyd. The same goes for Jeff Beck, regarding the Amused to Death album (unfortunately, there was no tour for that one at all...).

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Luca » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:58 pm

Hadrian wrote: I wrote about this somewhere on the forum already, but Roger Water's The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking solo tour in 1984-85 would've been a perfect avenue for concurrently promoting The Final Cut album. TFC was still only a year old, and without any live promotion. To my mind, the logical thing for Roger to do there was Set 1: The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking (the entire album), Set 2: The Final Cut (the entire album), Encore: Old Pink* (as Roger calls a live mix of older Pink Floyd numbers). Moreover, if such a tour was filmed and released on home video, I suspect that it would be a quite a historical seller by now.
In 1984 he had to struggle very hard to set up the european leg of the tour (noone was interested), and as soon as they realised he wanted to tour north america again in 1985... the record company told him "you must be crazy!!!" :) He also had to add Another brick in the wall to warm up the crowd. A PACOHH and TFC kombo would've been a complete disaster :D Most people want only the big hits... and the same do I when I go to see Bruce Springsteen or Depeche Mode.
It was a brilliant plan to bring Eric Clapton on board (...as 'surrogate Dave'...), for both The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking album and its subsequent tour. Unfortunately, Waters never really allowed him to play on the record, a fantastic missed opportunity. I have not seen the shows with Clapton so I am not entirely sure on this, but I have not encountered any evidence that Waters and Clapton reworked some of the "Old Pink" repertoire to let Clapton's personal style and individual guitar work shine on that particular material. That would've been a great concert video/live album in itself - Eric Clapton playing Pink Floyd. The same goes for Jeff Beck, regarding the Amused to Death album (unfortunately, there was no tour for that one at all...).
On Amazon is now available a bootleg of the 1985 tour ("Pros and Cons of New York": I'll order it when I come back from holidays). If I remember well... in 1984 Clapton had a lot of space for solos at the end of The Gunner's dream. I'd like to know whether Welcome to the machine and Nobody home were lipsynched or not.

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Hadrian » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:15 pm

The tour was a disaster because Waters was aiming at arenas and stadiums. The material was more appropriate for smaller venues and more intimate shows (with more theater-like stage setup - for both albums, if they were to be played live). Neither The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking or (had it been played) The Final Cut are stadium rock stuff. Waters made a logistical mistake there, which cost him a lot of cash. The Final Cut sold 3 million copies, and I cannot believe that no one would come to hear it (had it been played as Set 2 on the tour).

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Djgilmour » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:27 am

I have many bootlegs from the 1984 tour and Clapton was allowed to have a different solo each night at the end of the first set during the Gunners Dream.
The opening night in Stockholm, Sweden was his best performance, an amzing solo in tGD.

I would have loved go hear the title track of tFC live at Live8. That would have been awesome!

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Kerry King » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:09 am

Luca wrote: On Amazon is now available a bootleg of the 1985 tour ("Pros and Cons of New York": I'll order it when I come back from holidays). If I remember well... in 1984 Clapton had a lot of space for solos at the end of The Gunner's dream. I'd like to know whether Welcome to the machine and Nobody home were lipsynched or not.
If you're ordering it because of the presence of Clapton make sure he's on it because he did not perform with Waters on the 1985 dates.

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Luca » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:23 am

"Make sure"? I'm sure he's NOT on it :) The guitarist, then, was Jay Stapley.

During The Wall and Final Cut the band imploded, I think, because noone trusted each others musical talent. Rick Wright could not play fast, Waters could not sing firmly in tune, Nick Mason... you know... Gilmour the same old blues... A tour of TFC would've been a mess of pre-recorded tracks for almost everything (high notes, orchestra and sound effects). It was never, in my opinion, a matter of politics.

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Kerry King » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:38 pm

Clapton is the most overrated guitarist in the history of ratings anyway. Not his fault, but still. He added very little to an already dull album. The difference between Gilmour and Clapton is like the difference between excitement and boredom.
If you listen to the Layla album...every amazing guitar part on that album was played by Duane Allman.

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by The Gunner's Dream » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:47 am

At least Clapton could play his own songs most of the time. The same can't be said of Jimmy Page.

I suspect a "Final Cut" tour would have been presented in a similar format to "The Wall" shows: lots of pre-recorded sound effects, extra musicians onstage, and thematically relevant images projected onscreen. It would have been a great opportunity to cherry pick from The Final Cut as well as the previous albums, doing a "best of" selection from TFC, The Wall, Animals, and maybe some earlier selections as encores. At the time of TFC, Pink Floyd had grown into a literal monster. I don't see a small scale theatrical production working. The extreme dynamic range of the songs from TFC would have presented some challenges in an arena setting but it would have been interesting to hear them adapted to a live setting. Waters was probably capable of singing most of the selections from that era- his voice was at its peak around then. Since the mid-80's he's never had anywhere near the range, clarity, or intonation so any hopes of him doing anything from that album now would be a lost cause- he'd probably lip synch everything anyway.

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Re: What would a tour supporting The Final Cut have been lik

Post by Hadrian » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:35 pm

Great info about Eric Clapton owning "The Gunner's Dream" during the 1984 leg of the Pros and Cons tour. I'll check out his solos from the bootlegs as suggested. This is exactly the type of thing that I was talking about.

Here is something about that tour from guitarist Tim Renwick, from 1994 (ten years after the fact):

"Roger's a very different sort of person [i.e. different from Eric Clapton or David Gilmour, described as easygoing]. I have tremendous respect for him. He's a very clever man, but he is very serious. When Eric and I toured with him, he wanted everything exactly the same as the record, which, unfortunately, kind of took the fun out of performing"

That's the problem right there. Someone said above that Clapton was 'allowed' to have solos on "The Gunner's Dream" - unfortunately, allowed seems the correct verb there.

Waters invited Clapton to record the album before that, but did a similar thing in the studio - he did not let Clapton spread his (guitar) wings at all. This is an indication of a wider problem with RW's solo albums - lack of music. Once the band is out of the picture, the balance between the music and the lyrics is gone as well. RW's solo albums, like a pendulum going too far in one direction, demonstrate the tendency to become spoken word albums (perhaps they should be that, in their ultimate form). Waters had the right idea how to correct this (bringing in Clapton for Pros and Cons; bringing in Jeff Beck for Amused to Death; and he should've brought Jimmy Page for Radio K.A.O.S. to complete the utilization of Yardbirds!), but he did not execute it in the studio/live as he should/could have.