Of Waters' Narrative

[Yucateco]

well if TFC is leftover material, it´s the best leftovers EVER

[Hudini]

I'll just say that the song comfortably numb obviously sucks cuz it wasnt good enough for Gilmours first solo album so whats he doing contributing this reject runt of a song for The Wall?

First of all, 'Comfortably Numb' doesn't "suck" just for being a leftover from Gilmour's solo album... If a song is a leftover, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a reject, and you can't automatically say it sucks. 'Embryo' is a leftover from 'Ummagumma' sessions. Does it suck?

Second, the song wasn't intended to be on the Gilmour's album. The album was already done and in the mixing process when Gilmour recorded the demo.

Third, if you listen to the demo you will find out that the whole idea evolved so much that it is barely the same song in 1979. as it has been in 1978. Even the 1979. demos that the whole band recorded differ from the album version, at points drastically.

You think David Gilmour rejected the song for not being good enough. If he had come up with the complete version that improved so much since the first demo, I believe he would have put it on the album without thinking.

[David Smith]

Hudini, i think he was joking (or at least i hope he was.)

He was making the point that if Dave can dismiss songs on TFC because they were supposedly substandard then by that logic Comfortably Numb would have to be a bad song too.

I assume he was actually sticking up for both TFC and CN by showing the limitations of that logic

[arana]

Surely, The Wall, The Final Cut, and The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking, all forms an integral and central part of the narrative, that's the subject of this thread...

But I wonder...since Waters claims, that "Each Small Candle" also formed part of that narrative (in the "In the Flesh" booklet, mentioned in the first post), perhaps some other "new" compositions also does? Here I think of "Leaving Beirut", and "To Kill the Child". Did I get the latter right?

Not to mentioned the rumoured two upcoming studio albums, one of which was called "Heartland", if I am not mistaken. This, in turn, is apparently a continuation of sorts, of The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking; a central of theme on this album being "love"...

So, it would seem indeed, that he remains preoccupied to the same central themes throughout his career. Maybe this is the right choice to have a few focus points, or central issues if you like, in terms of writing lyrics?

Oh, and just another question...does "Ca Ira" also forms part of that narrative? As I understand, Waters wrote the music, but only translated the lyrics from French? Is this correct?

Thank you for the replies!

Arana

[J Ed]

the Comfortably Numb demo is indeed unrecognizable as compared to the final version
clearly Dave needed someone else to rewrite his "song" for him to make it listenable, and it never would have appeared on his 1st album because he didnt know how to complete it by himself

the difference between CN and the alleged Wall rejects is that we've all heard the CN demo, it exists, its not just some bitter bandmates wild accusation
nobodys ever heard these tracks rejected from The Wall that Roger later brought back for the next album
all we have is Daves word this happened, and as discussed before Dave cant even tell Rogers songs apart - the quote in the Schaffner book where he alleges tFC consists of Wall rejects is only pages away from the quote where he claims the Wall demo and the P&C demo were indistinguishable and equally unlistenable
we need some solid proof there ever were songs rejected before we can take Daves claim seriously
...but in the meantime, that CN demo is just a couple of repeated chords with some tuneless humming, vastly worse than any of those songs on tFC which he couldnt be bothered contributing to

the last time we argued this point either Mosespa or Tenniru took the time to transcribe from Vernons book the tracklistings of the earlier iterations of The Wall, there was only one possible tFC song rejected, but interestingly there was also a song that ended up on tP&C

my personal theory is that the Final Cut songs came to Roger some time later while they were making the film, as they are similar to Tigers, being spoken word w orchestra and sound effects
they are not similar to The Wall, which is a heavy metal rock opera
perhaps Roger wanted to add more new songs to The Wall soundtrack and thats when they were introduced and rejected?


as for Ca Ira, Roger may not have written the words but the story of the goals and consequences of the French Revolution is certainly consistent with his ongoing themes as posited in this thread

[mosespa]

I have written an article for the NPF Magazine that breaks down the issue of whether or not TFC is comprised of leftovers from The Wall.

There's really no way that it can be...except for "One Of The Few" and "The Hero's Return." It seems that at some point, Roger wanted to present The Schoolmaster's point-of-view about some things, but Ezrin felt that that would only complicate the storyline.

It's possible that those two songs were once part of The Wall. But...if you look in Vernon Fitch and Richard Mahon's book about The Wall, you will find a photo of a handwritten tracklisting for the first batch of The Wall demos.

A song called "Teacher, Teacher" (which, apparently went on to become "The Hero's Return") IS on that track listing.

But that's it.

One song.

Uno.

Singular.

Solitary.

Solo.

By itself.

And a short song, at that.

Gilmour is not a very reliable source of historical information.

[Hudini]

The Wall, which is a heavy metal rock opera

The Wall is neither heavy metal nor it is a rock opera.

[mosespa]

The Wall is neither heavy metal nor it is a rock opera.

Yes it is...both, actually.

Prior to the rise of bands like Judas Priest and Metallica, fans of Heavy Metal music also were fans of Pink Floyd.

I once had a book called "The International Encyclopedia Of Hard Rock And Heavy Metal." I forget the authors' names, but I may still have this book in my life somewhere.

Anyway, it lists Pink Floyd alongside Led Zeppelin, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Dio, Deep Purple, Accept, Quiet Riot...and even included Yes.

According to the authors, the likes of Pink Floyd and Yes appealed to the metal fans of the day. But bear in mind, at that point in time, metal wasn't all about speed. It found it's heaviness in "the plod."

So did Pink Floyd.

As for whether or not The Wall is a rock opera; well...yes, it IS a rock opera. At least as much as Tommy.

In The Flesh? sort of acts as an overture by stating at the very beginning, the major musical motifs that are going to recur over the course of the work.

It uses characters and a storyline which is dramatized by the music.

If it's not a rock opera...please tell me what the hell it is?

[Hudini]

Prior to the rise of bands like Judas Priest and Metallica, fans of Heavy Metal music also were fans of Pink Floyd.

I once had a book called "The International Encyclopedia Of Hard Rock And Heavy Metal." I forget the authors' names, but I may still have this book in my life somewhere.

Anyway, it lists Pink Floyd alongside Led Zeppelin, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Dio, Deep Purple, Accept, Quiet Riot...and even included Yes.

If the book was called "The International Encyclopedia Of Hard Rock And Heavy Metal", there are numerous reasons why Pink Floyd were listed in there. They may have been listed as a hard rock band. They may have been listed as a 'heavy but not heavy metal band'.

If you were to write such a book today, would you put Tool in? I know I absolutely would though they are neither hard rock nor heavy metal band. I would have put them in just for the heavy feel they give...

I know that Rush has been (and still is) considered by many people as heavy metal. It might have been heavy metal in 1975, and '2112' is definitely a heavy metal album, but is 'Hold Your Fire' a heavy metal album? Are they still a heavy metal band?

According to the authors, the likes of Pink Floyd and Yes appealed to the metal fans of the day. But bear in mind, at that point in time, metal wasn't all about speed. It found it's heaviness in "the plod."

So did Pink Floyd.

That's what I said about Tool. They are not about speed. They are not about heaviness. Would you put them in an 'encyclopedia of hard rock and heavy metal'? Absolutely.

But that doesn't make them a heavy metal band.

As for whether or not The Wall is a rock opera; well...yes, it IS a rock opera. At least as much as Tommy.

In The Flesh? sort of acts as an overture by stating at the very beginning, the major musical motifs that are going to recur over the course of the work.

'The Wall' is not a rock opera. 'Tommy' is. There are at least more than two 'actors' on 'Tommy'.

It is absolutely irrelevant whether you have an overture and the repetition of motifs to call an album a rock opera. If that's what defines a rock opera, than each and every Dream Theater album would be one... But they are not.

It uses characters and a storyline which is dramatized by the music.

How many characters does 'The Wall' use excluding The Trial and Mother? One.

The Trial is opera. But not rock opera.

Mother is a duet.

Besides a couple more songs that feature a line or two of someone else (mostly Teacher or Mother), the great majority of songs are left with only one character in, and no matter how many actors are playing, it is still only one role. There are not enough characters to make it an opera.

As for a storyline... It is common in opera that the storyline goes in real time. That is not the case on 'The Wall'. Its storyline is everywhere but in real time.

If it's not a rock opera...please tell me what the hell it is?

It is a rock concept album, with the elements of a rock opera and maybe some 70s heavy metal influences.

[David Smith]

Maybe i'm just foolish, or it comes from my lack of knowledge on metal, but i really can't see any heavy parts to the music of Pink Floyd

Could somebody give some example of the floyd using elements of metal or even just hard rock?

[PublicImage]

Maybe i'm just foolish, or it comes from my lack of knowledge on metal, but i really can't see any heavy parts to the music of Pink Floyd

Could somebody give some example of the floyd using elements of metal or even just hard rock?

The Nile Song, Ibiza Bar and Young Lust. That's about it.

[Hudini]

Maybe i'm just foolish, or it comes from my lack of knowledge on metal, but i really can't see any heavy parts to the music of Pink Floyd

Could somebody give some example of the floyd using elements of metal or even just hard rock?

The Nile Song, Ibiza Bar and Young Lust. That's about it.

And Not Now John.

[nosaj]

Maybe i'm just foolish, or it comes from my lack of knowledge on metal, but i really can't see any heavy parts to the music of Pink Floyd

Could somebody give some example of the floyd using elements of metal or even just hard rock?

The Nile Song...and the main riff that repeats in the Wall.

[J Ed]

...and In The Flesh and parts of the Thin Ice and the big solo at the end of CN
basically all the parts that the fictitious Pinks band is supposed to be playing in their concert within the story, theyre supposed to be a Spinal Tap-ish macho stadium rock type band (not what floydfans expected to see)

but Ive confused the issue, heavymetal rockopera is just a term I threw out quickly to demonstrate that the final cut does not sound very much like the wall, thats why i think the songs were written after
maybe bad reasoning, as now I think it through, tFC does sound like Pros & Cons, and we know that one was written at the same time as The Wall
so really I dont have a clue...
except that Roger starts from the lyrics, tFC is about thatchers dismantling of the postwar welfare state, and this began after her election in 1979, after the wall came out and while they were working on the film
if we remove the lyrics I cant imagine what parts of the songs would have existed before Thatcher came to power - the melodies such as they are?

[Hudini]

except that Roger starts from the lyrics, tFC is about thatchers dismantling of the postwar welfare state, and this began after her election in 1979, after the wall came out and while they were working on the film
if we remove the lyrics I cant imagine what parts of the songs would have existed before Thatcher came to power - the melodies such as they are?

Actually most the lyrics for The Final Cut haven't been written before the Falkland crisis, that was the trigger for the album.

I can imagine the music being written earlier. You said it yourself, The Wall and Pros And Cons have been written at the same time. The Final Cut is musically extremely similar to Pros And Cons. So why couldn't have music for The Final Cut been written at the same time as for the other two albums? I don't say it has been, I'm just saying it might have happened.

As for 'The Hero's Return'. That is the only proven leftover from The Wall, others allegedly being Your Possible Pasts and One Of The Few.