Of Waters' Narrative

[mosespa]

Sheep could also be considered a metal song.

Yes, I would consider TOOL a heavy metal band and would classify them in such a book if it were written today.

Hudini...have you forgotten the groupie? The operator? The Schoolmaster (remember, you hear him at the end of Brick Two and you hear his laugh in THDOOL.) The "narrator" in the middle of Hey You?

You say that an overture and recurring themes are not important to the definition "rock opera."

But they are...they're some of the things that DEFINE Rock Opera.

Let's just assume that the only difference between "true" opera and "rock" opera is the musical form...Rock versus Classical.

Now...let's look at the definition of "opera."

Noun
S: (n) opera (a drama set to music; consists of singing with orchestral accompaniment and an orchestral overture and interludes)

This definition is located here: http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=opera

The Wall IS a drama set to music. This, to me, is the KEY difference between Rock Opera and Concept Album.

Rock Opera contains a plot.

A Concept Album explores a theme. No plot necessary.

DSOTM has no plot to speak of. It is simply an album about the pressures of modern life which can drive one insane. It is a Concept Album.

The Wall is about this guy named Pink who decides to build a wall between himself and the world. Having done so, he starts to go mad until his manager comes along and gets him ready for the show by having him injected with a stimulant...but I really don't think that I need to go any further.

The Wall is a drama set to music...thus, it is Rock Opera.

Discussing whether or not Pink Floyd can be classified as a heavy metal band is just as pointless as discussing whether or not they can be classified as a pop band...or a Prog band.

I think that the only people who would classify Pink Floyd under a specific label are either people who enjoy the music that said label represents AND the music of Pink Floyd or people who hate said label AND also hate Pink Floyd.

And, I feel that the only people who would object to such a labelling would be people who like Pink Floyd, but not the music that said label represents.

Just my two cents...

[Hudini]

No, I have not forgotten the groupie, the teacher in Another Brick, and others, but really don't count them because they have some 30 seconds long spoken parts or their roles are sampled into music, that's not opera by definition. Imagine a classic opera where you have one guy singing all the time and ten other actors coming in occasionally to speak some lines. Would that be opera?

As for heavy metal, Pink Floyd sure did some heavy metal stuff, but calling The Wall a heavy metal album is crazy. Young Lust is heavy metal. Parts of In The Flesh, The Thin Ice and Waiting For The Worms, even Comfortably Numb solo and Run Like Hell could be considered heavy metal, but it's far from a heavy metal album.

[J Ed]

dont get all worked up over that! I was reaching for a concise term to contrast the two albums, my point was they dont sound the same, thus I dont think tFC songs were ever a part of it
call it something other than heavymetal rockopera if you like, I put no thought into making up that term

Hudini youre right about the opera, if I paid money to see an opera Id expect to see more than one vocalist up there on the stage, The Wall is structured to tell a narrative story with characters up on a stage in the shape of an opera but theres not quite enough characters to be a proper opera
part of Rogers selfcentredness I guess, he couldnt imagine any need for his protagonist/alterego to actually have any dialogs with other people

[PublicImage]

No, I have not forgotten the groupie, the teacher in Another Brick, and others, but really don't count them because they have some 30 seconds long spoken parts or their roles are sampled into music, that's not opera by definition. Imagine a classic opera where you have one guy singing all the time and ten other actors coming in occasionally to speak some lines. Would that be opera?

Would you rather call it a "rock soliloquy"?

[Hudini]

Would you rather call it a "rock soliloquy"?

I would have most likely called it a "concept album with the elements of a rock opera", as I already did, but I do like the sound of "rock soliloquy".

[mosespa]

1. No, I have not forgotten the groupie, the teacher in Another Brick, and others, but really don't count them because they have some 30 seconds long spoken parts or their roles are sampled into music, that's not opera by definition.

2. Imagine a classic opera where you have one guy singing all the time and ten other actors coming in occasionally to speak some lines. Would that be opera?

3. As for heavy metal, Pink Floyd sure did some heavy metal stuff, but calling The Wall a heavy metal album is crazy. Young Lust is heavy metal. Parts of In The Flesh, The Thin Ice and Waiting For The Worms, even Comfortably Numb solo and Run Like Hell could be considered heavy metal, but it's far from a heavy metal album.

1. The definition that I cited does not set a specific number of people who must be involved in order for the work to be considered opera.

So...by the definition I've cited...Yes, it IS.

2. I would consider it such...as long as there were recurrin motifs in the music and some attempt at an overture.

Again, the number of characters involved is not mentioned at all in the definition I've cited. So, you seem to be trying to define opera according to what YOU think an opera should be.

Who died and made you the ultimate authority of what is and is not Opera?

3. Ah...just like "Is There Anybody Out There" could be considered a Prog piece...yet Pink Floyd ARE NOT A PROG BAND.

See where I'm going with this?

part of Rogers selfcentredness I guess, he couldnt imagine any need for his protagonist/alterego to actually have any dialogs with other people

What would the point of a work about alienation and isolation be if it contained continuous dialogues with other people?

[Hudini]

Ah... A mossification! Long time no see

The definition that I cited does not set a specific number of people who must be involved in order for the work to be considered opera.

So...by the definition I've cited...Yes, it IS.

By definition you've cited it is. Name me one classic opera that involves only one actor who sings. It's an unwritten rule.

I would consider it such...as long as there were recurrin motifs in the music and some attempt at an overture.

That it is not enough to define an opera. That rule could also be applied to symphonies, suites, concertos and lots of other musical works that even don't involve singing. Are they all operas then?

Again, the number of characters involved is not mentioned at all in the definition I've cited.

That's again in the definition you've cited. Does there say that an opera can be a soliloquy? I'm not saying it couldn't be, I'm just saying I've never heard of one.

So, you seem to be trying to define opera according to what YOU think an opera should be.

Who died and made you the ultimate authority of what is and is not Opera?

I never said I was the ultimate authority of what is and what is not opera. We all have our opinions, and our opinions differ. Is that source you cited the ultimate authority of what is and what is not opera? If it is, who or what died and made it that?

Ah...just like "Is There Anybody Out There" could be considered a Prog piece...yet Pink Floyd ARE NOT A PROG BAND.

I wouldn't consider it a prog piece. But Pink Floy ARE A PROG BAND.

See where I'm going with this?

Yes. Nowhere.

[mosespa]

1. By definition you've cited it is. Name me one classic opera that involves only one actor who sings. It's an unwritten rule.

2. That it is not enough to define an opera. That rule could also be applied to symphonies, suites, concertos and lots of other musical works that even don't involve singing. Are they all operas then?

3. That's again in the definition you've cited. Does there say that an opera can be a soliloquy? I'm not saying it couldn't be, I'm just saying I've never heard of one.

4. I never said I was the ultimate authority of what is and what is not opera. We all have our opinions, and our opinions differ. Is that source you cited the ultimate authority of what is and what is not opera? If it is, who or what died and made it that?

5. I wouldn't consider it a prog piece. But Pink Floy ARE A PROG BAND.

6. Yes. Nowhere.

1. Ah...an UNWRITTEN rule is not much of a rule, now is it? As far as rules go, you bring them up to the guy who believes that rules are there to be broken.

But, to meet your challenge of naming an opera with only one character who sings, I'm afraid that I can't. I'm not that familiar with Opera on the whole...and since even The Wall has more than one character singing, I can't even use it as an example:P

2. Ah...but are those other forms DRAMATIC PIECES set to music? No, they are not.

To be an opera, there must be an overture, recurring musical themes and a STORYLINE...The Wall meets ALL of these requirements.

Your insistence on more than one person on stage is yours alone. I don't see a minimum character requirement in any other definition of it, either.

3. As long as the musical and dramatic requirements are meant, yes...a soliloquy COULD be operatic.

In fact, whenever it happens within part of a larger opera, I think it's called an Aria.

4. And opinions are not fact, are they? Yet, you keep insisting that it is a FACT that The Wall is NOT a Rock Opera because it doesn't have enough characters.

Yet, that's really only your OPINION, isn't it? It's not a fact.

The source that I cited is a dictionary. A dictionary is kind of supposed to be an authority on the definition of things...after all, that's what a dictionary does.

It DEFINES words.

So, yes...it IS an authority on what Opera is. And no one had to die to make it so

5. No, they're not. And I can back that up with FACT, me bucko.

6. So says you...and you're wrong

[PublicImage]

That it is not enough to define an opera. That rule could also be applied to symphonies, suites, concertos and lots of other musical works that even don't involve singing. Are they all operas then?

I have never heard a symphony, suite or concerto with an overture. Can you give an example of one?

[Hudini]

Ah...an UNWRITTEN rule is not much of a rule, now is it? As far as rules go, you bring them up to the guy who believes that rules are there to be broken.

But, to meet your challenge of naming an opera with only one character who sings, I'm afraid that I can't. I'm not that familiar with Opera on the whole...and since even The Wall has more than one character singing, I can't even use it as an example:P

The Wall has more characters sung by one singer in one song (The Trial) foe which I've said that it is opera and two characters sung by two singers in another one (Mother), which I've said is a duet. That is not enough to define the whole as an opera.

Ah...but are those other forms DRAMATIC PIECES set to music? No, they are not.

To be an opera, there must be an overture, recurring musical themes and a STORYLINE...The Wall meets ALL of these requirements.

I didn't say "dramatic", did I? Now when you add "storyline", I would say it does define an opera. Just recurring musical motifs define nothing.

As long as the musical and dramatic requirements are meant, yes...a soliloquy COULD be operatic.

In fact, whenever it happens within part of a larger opera, I think it's called an Aria.

Yes, it is called an aria. A 60 minute aria is not called an opera though, and that is what's going on on The Wall.

And opinions are not fact, are they? Yet, you keep insisting that it is a FACT that The Wall is NOT a Rock Opera because it doesn't have enough characters.

Yet, that's really only your OPINION, isn't it? It's not a fact.

I keep on defending my points of view. After all, that's what a normal person should do until proven wrong. And you still can't convince me The Wall is a rock opera.

Again, I never said that was a fact, did I?

The source that I cited is a dictionary. A dictionary is kind of supposed to be an authority on the definition of things...after all, that's what a dictionary does.

It DEFINES words.

So, yes...it IS an authority on what Opera is. And no one had to die to make it so

I though you cited a musical theory book or something like that. You said it yourself, dictionaries define words. Dictionaries do not go deeper than merely stating what is meant by what word, also in shortest possible.

No, they're not. And I can back that up with FACT, me bucko.

Like in the "Prog/Non-Prog" thread? Your facts were pretty contradictory back there.

So says you...and you're wrong

Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not.

I have never heard a symphony, suite or concerto with an overture. Can you give an example of one?

No, they have no formal overture, and that is true. But mosespa actually said "attempt at overture", in order to declare In The Flesh as an overture for The Wall. An intro theme is consistent in pretty much every musical work, and that's what I meant when I replied to that "attempt at overture" thing. It is not an overture, as In The Flesh is not an overture, but you can sometimes mistake it for one.

[mosespa]

The Wall has more characters sung by one singer in one song (The Trial) foe which I've said that it is opera and two characters sung by two singers in another one (Mother), which I've said is a duet. That is not enough to define the whole as an opera.

Again, I have run across no definition of "Opera" that requires a specific number of singers...so long as singing is being done (and the other musical requirements are in place along with the dramatic content,) it can be called "Opera."

Also, we're not talking about "pure Opera." We're talking about "Rock Opera."

If there weren't a difference, there wouldn't be a seperate term for it.

I suspect we'll have to debate the particulars of this issue as this argument continues.

Sure, The Wall as an album doesn't have a large number of singers.

There were only three guys in the band who sang.

Do you mean to say that Tommy is not a Rock Opera, then? I mean, there were only four voices on that album for the different characters.

In some songs on The Wall, there are harmony vocals being sung along with the lead. A function of characters on the stage in a proper Opera is to provide harmony vocals. Is it too much to imagine that the harmony vocals on Comfortably Numb might be being provided by an orderly assissting the Doctor?

Or perhaps Pink has developed a schizoid split and there are now two facets of his personality onstage at the same time.

Roger Waters has said that Waiting For The Worms is something of a duet between the two sides of Pink battling for control over his soul.

That's not a direct quote, of course. I'm paraphrasing, but I believe it is in both the Jim Ladd and Timothy White walk-throughs of The Wall. These are easily found using a google search.

Don't confuse the number of voices with the number of characters who could be onstage at any given time.

I didn't say "dramatic", did I? Now when you add "storyline", I would say it does define an opera. Just recurring musical motifs define nothing.

Well, given that you were getting hung up on the MUSICAL definition of Opera (which The Wall DOES meet,) I thought I'd remind you that you were forgetting the DRAMATIC bit...which is just as important as an overture or recurring motifs.

I took your statments to mean that you were disregarding the dramatic bit...you can't do that.

This is the clearest way I can imagine expressing one simple fact in this moment:

The Wall has an overture (I'll get to that in a moment.) It has recurring musical themes. It has a dramatic plot which is being forwarded through the music and lyrics via musicians and singers.

It meets the most basic definition of Opera that one can come up with without excluding Rock entirely because it is not "Classical."

Technically niether The Wall nor Tommy nor Jesus Christ, Superstar are legitimate "Opera." They are performed on Rock instruments.

Thus, it makes sense to me that "Rock Opera" has different requirements than "Pure Opera."

The only difference between a "concept album" and a "rock opera" is this:

A storyline...a plot. A progression of events which builds to a climax and denoument.

The Wall has these things. It IS a Rock Opera.

Would you consider Dark Side Of The Moon to be a Rock Opera if it had sixteen people singing the lines?

I wouldn't. It doesn't have a plot.

Yes, it is called an aria. A 60 minute aria is not called an opera though, and that is what's going on on The Wall.

Maybe The Wall is a work which will be proven to redefine what Rock Opera is?

Why couldn't an Opera be a sixty minute aria? There's still fourteen to twenty minutes of the album for other people to sing.

What if The Wall is only one Act in a multiple Act Operatic work?

Also, The Wall was an album made by Pink Floyd. If it were performed in an Opera House, there would be more singers singing. Would you call it a Rock Opera only then?

I think that if Mozart were alive today, he'd be utilizing the available technology to record his music in album format all by himself.

He'd play every part and sing every line.

Would that mean that Don Giovanni is no longer an opera?

I keep on defending my points of view. After all, that's what a normal person should do until proven wrong. And you still can't convince me The Wall is a rock opera.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the first part. I'd even give you a high-five smilie if there were one

As to the second part...well, I'm working on that

I though you cited a musical theory book or something like that. You said it yourself, dictionaries define words. Dictionaries do not go deeper than merely stating what is meant by what word, also in shortest possible.

So, obviously you didn't click on the link that I provided to show you that I didn't make that definition up. Am I THAT trustworthy?

We are talking about the definition of a word. That word is "Opera."

You say it's one thing.

I say that it's another thing.

A dictionary definition seems like a plausible source to use when arguing over the definition of a word to me.

Like in the "Prog/Non-Prog" thread? Your facts were pretty contradictory back there.

Which ones? I admit that Pink Floyd have elements of Prog...but this does not make them a Prog band.

You maintain that Pink Floyd cannot possibly be considered a Metal band...yet, they have about as many "Metal" songs as they do "Prog" songs.

Refer to the songs mentioned on the previous pages.

Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not.

You are...you just haven't accepted it, yet.

But you at least admit that there is a possibility that you are. That's a good thing.

No, they have no formal overture, and that is true. But mosespa actually said "attempt at overture", in order to declare In The Flesh as an overture for The Wall. An intro theme is consistent in pretty much every musical work, and that's what I meant when I replied to that "attempt at overture" thing. It is not an overture, as In The Flesh is not an overture, but you can sometimes mistake it for one.

In The Flesh IS an overture in the sense that it states the primary musical theme of the work. It does that in the first three notes...then does it again with the next three in a different key.

Gilmour's first "solo" bit in In The Flesh is even a statement of his solos throughout the album. Nearly every solo contains that lick or a variation of it.

[Hudini]

Jeez. Let's try cutting this all simple.

Also, we're not talking about "pure Opera." We're talking about "Rock Opera."

If there weren't a difference, there wouldn't be a seperate term for it.

I suspect we'll have to debate the particulars of this issue as this argument continues.

There won't be a debate on this, I accept these are separate terms. The Wall is definitely not "opera", but I also don't think it's a "rock opera".

Don't confuse the number of voices with the number of characters who could be onstage at any given time.

I'm not. Except for The Trial (which again is opera, although sung by one actor only), there are two duets (yes, I correct myself): Mother (Pink and Mother), and Comfortably Numb (Pink and The Doctor). All the other characters that appear in the storyline are just sampled voices over music and I couldn't call them actors.

Well, given that you were getting hung up on the MUSICAL definition of Opera (which The Wall DOES meet,) I thought I'd remind you that you were forgetting the DRAMATIC bit...which is just as important as an overture or recurring motifs.

I took your statments to mean that you were disregarding the dramatic bit...you can't do that.

I'm not. It's what defines an opera. The dramatic bit is the most important for existence of one. Neither an overture nor recurring musical themes define an opera.

The only difference between a "concept album" and a "rock opera" is this:

A storyline...a plot. A progression of events which builds to a climax and denoument.

The Wall has these things. It IS a Rock Opera.

Would it still be an opera if it had been told by a single third person storyteller? I don't think it would, even if it had a progression of events. Rush's '2112' (the song, not the album) has everything you're talking about: an overture, recurring musical motifs, the storyline and at least two characters. Is it an opera then?

Would you consider Dark Side Of The Moon to be a Rock Opera if it had sixteen people singing the lines?

I wouldn't. It doesn't have a plot.

Neither would I.

Maybe The Wall is a work which will be proven to redefine what Rock Opera is?

Well, maybe it is. But then again, if it redefines the term of a rock opera, it is not a rock opera in the classical meaning, right?

I think that if Mozart were alive today, he'd be utilizing the available technology to record his music in album format all by himself.

He'd play every part and sing every line.

Would that mean that Don Giovanni is no longer an opera?

It wouldn't, because Don Giovanni has dialogues. The Wall, except the three songs I've mentioned has not.

Which ones? I admit that Pink Floyd have elements of Prog...but this does not make them a Prog band.

You actually kept on saying how prog is based mostly on time signature and tempo changes, which Pink Floyd, according to you had not, and then you mentioned a couple of exceptions to that rule yourself. I don't want to debate this again, that is why I left the "Prog/Non-Prog" thread anyway. It lead nowhere.

You maintain that Pink Floyd cannot possibly be considered a Metal band...yet, they have about as many "Metal" songs as they do "Prog" songs.

I didn't say they couldn't possibly be considered a metal bend. I don't consider them one. On the other hand, I don't consider Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath heavy metal. If someone wants to think Pink Floyd is heavy metal, I have nothing against it.

You are...you just haven't accepted it, yet.

But you at least admit that there is a possibility that you are. That's a good thing.

I always give a possibility I'm wrong in case I realize it myself. I don't think I'm perfect and I can't make a mistake, but still no one can tell me that if two persons have different opinions one of them has to be wrong.

In The Flesh IS an overture in the sense that it states the primary musical theme of the work. It does that in the first three notes...then does it again with the next three in a different key.

Gilmour's first "solo" bit in In The Flesh is even a statement of his solos throughout the album. Nearly every solo contains that lick or a variation of it.

In The Flesh is an attempt at overture. It does state the primary musical theme, states Gilmour's solos, but it also does state Waters' singing...

An overture is, by definition, an instrumental introduction into the music of an opera. Thus, In The Flesh is not an overture.


I don't know why a lot of people here are intimidated by being mossified. I'm really enjoying this, you know. Too bad all of this ends in a trash can in a couple of hours.

[mosespa]

Yes, I consider 2112 to be a ROCK OPERA...just as I consider The Wall to be a ROCK OPERA.

Once again, the definition that I cited says NOTHING about dialogues versus monologues and the number of characters on the stage.

Since you have completely failed to cite any definitioin where these come into play, I have no choice but to assume that these are rules that you yourself have imposed.

Thus, they must be considered irrelevant. Sorry.

I find it interesting that while you admit that Rock Opera is different from traditional Opera, you are still trying to hold The Wall up to traditional Opera and not Rock Opera.

What you think of as "contradictory statements" in the Prog thread are actually my way of demonstrating two things:

1. Every rule has an exception (i.e., Pink Floyd don't use irregular time signatures as a rule.)

and

2. While Pink Floyd are NOT a Prog band, they DO have elements of Prog in their music.

I see no contradiction, myself.

I'm glad that you've been enjoying this...as I have, too.

Maybe this WILL all end in a trash bin in a couple of hours...or maybe we can resurrect this argument

[Hudini]

Yes, I consider 2112 to be a ROCK OPERA...just as I consider The Wall to be a ROCK OPERA.

I think 2112 meets more terms of a rock opera than The Wall, but I wouldn't call either one of them a rock opera.

I would definitely call 2112 a rock operetta, if such a term existed.

Once again, the definition that I cited says NOTHING about dialogues versus monologues and the number of characters on the stage.

Since you have completely failed to cite any definitioin where these come into play, I have no choice but to assume that these are rules that you yourself have imposed.

Thus, they must be considered irrelevant. Sorry.

All right, since I haven't found any relevant definition that says anything about dialogues being important, and since an opera (classical or rock) is basically a combination of music and theatre, I will have to say The Wall meets some criteria... But it isn't a rock opera in the classical meaning of it.

There are monologue dramas, at last. The Wall can be considered a monolugue rock opera... Well, most of the time, since, as I've said there are duets and a classical opera part.

There's still an overture missing. But I don't consider it as relevant as the other criteria.

I find it interesting that while you admit that Rock Opera is different from traditional Opera, you are still trying to hold The Wall up to traditional Opera and not Rock Opera.

I'm not. I'm trying to hold The Wall up to traditional rock opera, such as Tommy, Jesus Christ Superstar, Hair or even Dream Theater's Metropolis (which is sung by one voice only but still has plenty of characters).

The Wall is neither here nor there. It is maybe a redefinition of rock opera. Or maybe it simply isn't one.

While Pink Floyd are NOT a Prog band, they DO have elements of Prog in their music.

So while The Wall DOES have elements of a rock opera, it is NOT a rock opera.

Maybe this WILL all end in a trash bin in a couple of hours...or maybe we can resurrect this argument

I've been thinking that myself.

[mosespa]

So while The Wall DOES have elements of a rock opera, it is NOT a rock opera.

I disagree.

Pink Floyd have fewer elements of Prog than The Wall has elements of Rock Opera.

The Wall is much closer to being a Rock Opera than Pink Floyd is to being a Prog Band.

Thus, I'd have to go with The Wall IS a Rock Opera while Pink Floyd are NOT a Prog band.

rock opera - a genre of the late 20th-century which tends to be sung throughout (like opera), but makes use of rock style in some or all of its score.

From: http://cla.calpoly.edu/~amclamor/324The ... cabpr.html

Again...no mention of "dialogue versus monologue." Only that singing must occur.


Other definitions that I have come across tend to cloud the discussion further.

Perhaps the truest statement in regards to Rock Opera is provided by Wikipedia:

The category a particular work falls into is largely defined by the intent and self-definition of the work by its creator. The formal distinction may be that the rock opera tells a coherent (if sometimes sketchy) story, often with first-person lyrics sung by characters; while a concept album or song cycle sets a mood or maintains a theme.