The Offical King Crimson Thread

[J Ed]

the Earthbound lineup was fired by Fripp because they wouldnt improvise they way he wanted to, he specifically had an issue with them slipping into blues grooves
after the firing all but Fripp recorded with British blues artist Alexis Korner, and Boz Burrell ended up with Bad Company
if I understand correctly Boz couldnt even play bass when Fripp hired him, so why did Fripp expect him to be capable of anything more complicated than blues grooves?

I think the early Crimson earns its proggy rep because of all the mellotron and lyrics about prophets and witches and dragons
it wasnt till the Wetton etc lineup they really got into the tricky time signatures and complexity

[oz1701]

i quite like the earthbound album - because it is different to the other live albums. the sound quality is heinous though.

[Duckboy]

the Earthbound lineup was fired by Fripp because they wouldnt improvise they way he wanted to, he specifically had an issue with them slipping into blues grooves
after the firing all but Fripp recorded with British blues artist Alexis Korner, and Boz Burrell ended up with Bad Company
if I understand correctly Boz couldnt even play bass when Fripp hired him, so why did Fripp expect him to be capable of anything more complicated than blues grooves?

I think the early Crimson earns its proggy rep because of all the mellotron and lyrics about prophets and witches and dragons
it wasnt till the Wetton etc lineup they really got into the tricky time signatures and complexity

He was hired for his vocals and I think they were having trouble finding a bassist so Fripp just taught him. I don't think he intended for him to be the bassist permanently. And yeah Larks Tongue in Aspic was the first album that was prog but I still think 21st Century Schizoid man, with it's strangely timed riff, syncopation and trippy solo, was a prog song.

[danielcaux]

And yeah Larks Tongue in Aspic was the first album that was prog

Because Prog = Complex, right?

Nope, I think that since the begining King Crimson was Prog. It's all about the musical style, not about complexity. Prog = Rock + (heavy doses of elements from classical, jazz, folk, avant-garde and other non blues-centric forms of world music). That's why Floyd didn't really fit confortably into the genre, they were seriously missing in the classical element department.

[Duckboy]

And yeah Larks Tongue in Aspic was the first album that was prog

Because Prog = Complex, right?

Nope, I think that since the begining King Crimson was Prog. It's all about the musical style, not about complexity. Prog = Rock + (heavy doses of elements from classical, jazz, folk, avant-garde and other non blues-centric forms of world music). That's why Floyd didn't really fit confortably into the genre, they were seriously missing in the classical element department.

I didn't say that. I just don't think any WHOLE album before that one was prog. I accept that they had prog songs (except maybe islands I don't think that is prog at all). As for prog song certainly many of their songs before that were.

EDIT: I've changed my mind. Lizard is probably their first prog album to me.

[Idisaffect]

Denver, Colorado, USA. 1972.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRYjxlBxXhg

[danielcaux]

I just don't think any WHOLE album before that one was prog. I accept that they had prog songs (except maybe islands I don't think that is prog at all).

What about "Prelude: Song of the Gulls"? That one was pretty proggy, in the "classical" influenced aspect. You know, if something in a rock album is called "prelude" then there's a 99% probability of it being prog

And what about Sailor's Tale? How would you classify it?

What I really like about Islands is how it sounds like a clash between two distinct music worlds. You can hear through out all the album a constant tension between the blues/jazz side and the classical/experimental side of the band. Sometimes you can even hear the two forces creating a kind of metamorphosis in a single song like Sailor's Tale and Formentra Lady.

I've changed my mind. Lizard is probably their first prog album to me.

If not for "In The Court" and "Wake of Poseidon" you would be right

You already stated that you considered Schizoid Man prog, now as an excercise let's examine the rest of the album. Listen to Epitaph and the tilte track and pay close attention to Fripp's guitar on them, then ask yourself: does it sound closer to the Rolling Stones or to classical guitar? Also listen to the timpani like drum rolls in those tracks (is that a drum set or an actual timpani?) those are straight from romantic period music. Then we have the ballads; at first Moonchild seems like pretty standard psychedelic Beatles balladry with a tinge of medieval folk (well maybe "pretty standard" is a little misguiding, afterall isn't "Eleanor Rigby" and its kind proto-prog?), but then the second part is pretty much "non pop". I wouldn't know how to classified it, it's freeform but itsn't jazz, it's atmospheric but itsn't soundtracky; it actually sounds closer to modern classical than to any type of pop music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71hNl_skTZQ

So the only song left is "I Talk To The Wind", perhaps the poppiest number in the whole album. It kind of sounds like Simon and Garfunkel, but it also has some classical elements all over it, mainly the flute solos and the delicate cymbal percussion, both are reminiscent of those used in symphonic compositions.

So that's 5 songs out of 5 in the album mixing classical and rock stylistic elements and voila a complete prog-rock record!

[J Ed]

I picked up a copy of Lizard and have reassessed that one
I now think it was the best of the ones with Mel Collins

the first side is indeed the most conventionally song oriented sequence of tracks they did prior to Discipline, yet those four songs are all full of sometimes very silly details and complex breakdowns and lots of honking and squeaking
side 2 is, also as I remembered, one big sweeping prog rock suite, the most stereotypically prog thing they ever did, but I like the whole thing and it does go through several very different movements
theres a sweeping melody that unites the 1st half, with movie soundtrack like melodrama, then it breaks down into more honking and squeaking that sounds almost like a Charles Mingus record except the same melody is still very subtly winding through that bit in between honks and squeaks
the second half is I think musically unrelated but also does several interesting things, finally dropping down to a Frippy feedback passage that sounds similar to (no pussyfooting), and the only bit on the album I really notice Fripp on guitar rather than mellotron

also the covers pretty slick, with all that mediaevel calligraphy and whatknot, but the marbling on the gatefold obscures the long list of guest musicians in the fineprint - Collins is obviously not the only horn player on this one

[J Ed]

and now Ive picked up Earthbound, which Ive never even heard before

what a weird King Crimson album
Fripps now released several shows by this lineup, via his website subscription service (I recommend the Summit Studios radio broadcast, and Live in Detroit 1971) many of which reveal perfectly acceptable sound quality yet Fripp chose to release this fuzzily defined monophonic document, and aside from Schizoid and Sailors its entirely plodding bluesbased jams (indeed with scat singing) entirely unlike the collective improvisations the next lineup would be known for
on the Detroit set mentioned above, and most other live recordings from this era, they actually performed songs from their first four albums
I think that was their first tour, and after Fripp told them they were fired they then decided to honour a commitment to a second tour, which Fripp lost all control over, which is why theres all this jamming in place of the fairy tales and mellotrons ... and yet theres that Summit Studios broadcast which was similarly freeform yet with more interesting jams (including a Pharoah Sanders cover) and perfect sound ...
my theory is Fripp deliberately chose to humiliate this band with the worst sounding live album he could release, "proving" to the world that these guys were incapable of improvising the way he wanted them to, and then contrasting this immediately with Jamie Muir's zany percussion theatre on the opening track of the very next album

and I think thats what the title refers to
it doesnt mean theyre tootally cosmic, it means theyre incapable of getting cosmic (as in "earthbound misfit I")

[Jimi Dean Barrett]

my theory is Fripp deliberately chose to humiliate this band with the worst sounding live album he could release, "proving" to the world that these guys were incapable of improvising the way he wanted them to, and then contrasting this immediately with Jamie Muir's zany percussion theatre on the opening track of the very next album

and I think thats what the title refers to
it doesnt mean theyre tootally cosmic, it means theyre incapable of getting cosmic (as in "earthbound misfit I")

I see your point, but now I've got this vision of Robert Fripp hosting a "Candid Camera/Beadle's About" type show where he tells his audience "Just watch how these musicians can't improvise with complexity!" Only to find the audience hasn't got a clue as to what he's going on about?
Really awkward close ups of Robert when he realises the TV people aren't going along with him. And then it cuts back to a shot of Pete Sinfield in the producer's booth smiling and going "Gotcha!"

Good thread by the way.

[nosaj]

I guess Islands is the most recent 40th Ann. release. Anybody have it? How are the bonus tracks?

[Enish]

This is a band that I really, REALLY want to like, but I can't seem to enjoy anything past In The Wake of Poseidon. They've gone through so many changes after that that they seem like they're not King Crimson to me anymore.

Also, Robert Fripp seems like he's one of the biggest jerk-asses in rock history. He makes Roger Waters look like a saint.

[danielcaux]

Really? He always seemed to me like a very down to earth kind of man, that always wanted to avoid the nonsense noise and espectacle so typical of music related media.

No flashes please. No flashes.

[nosaj]

In the liner notes of the "30th" Anniversary cds, Fripp seems pretty jaded...and Waters in the past decade is mister love... What is real??

[danielcaux]

In the liner notes of the "30th" Anniversary cds, Fripp seems pretty jaded...and Waters in the past decade is mister love... What is real??

My 30th anniversary CDs don't have any liner notes! Aren't you thinking of the 40th anniversary versions perhaps?

On another note, didn't know that a new KC related album was released this year:

A Scarcity Of Miracles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOxn2GTGa2U

I don't know about the other songs, but the title track sucks! The sound at first reminded me of AMLOR and then of Kenny G!

Good to see that Fripp is still alive and making new music though. And that he didn't stamp the KC brand on this release.


And on another more superficial note, the new singer is really rocking that retro 70s Kansas wet perm look! And Tony Levin looks like those blind mice from the Mother Goose tales!

And what about the video? It's like 70s new age imagery meets mid 90s CD-ROM videogame graphics