On God and Science

[cwta eugene]

From the Einstein link:

To be sure, when the number of factors coming into play in a phenomenological complex is too large, scientific method in most cases fails us. One need only think of the weather, in which case prediction even for a few days ahead is impossible. Nevertheless no one doubts that we are confronted with a causal connection whose causal components are in the main known to us. Occurrences in this domain are beyond the reach of exact prediction because of the variety of factors in operation, not because of any lack of order in nature.

Look at how far our understanding of the weather has come since 1941, when Einstein wrote this. He seems to be saying, to me atleast, that the weather cannot be predicted yet because of the large amounts of factors involved. But somewhere along the line, mankind has simplified those factors to the extent that now days weather most often can be predicted a few days ahead. I believe as long as this world exists, mankind will continue to become closer to knowing all God knows. As Einstein put it- God is the ultimate Preacher also going about the duties of a Teacher. It just wouldn't make sense to me that the knowledge we acquire here, and will continue to acquire in a post life, will just one day end and there will be no need for such knowledge anymore.

[iwantmypinkfloydnow]

1. I believe as long as this world exists, mankind will continue to become closer to knowing all God knows. As Einstein put it- God is the ultimate Preacher also going about the duties of a Teacher.

2. It just wouldn't make sense to me that the knowledge we acquire here, and will continue to acquire in a post life, will just one day end and there will be no need for such knowledge anymore.

1. Well yeah if you personify God. I on the other hand share somewhat of the philosophies of the pantheist. For me God is a symbol of the chaos of the world and understanding the fundamental workings of the world is like trying to understand God.

2. It will end. When the human race gets extinct and the sun envelops the Earth. On the bright side, as theoretical physics states, data is never lost, so our knowledge never disappears, it just becomes harder and harder to find traces of it.

[Idisaffect]

As Einstein put it - God is the ultimate Preacher also going about the duties of a Teacher.

So god is just another egotistical authority figure, eh? What gives god the right to create such vulnerable creatures who can be hurt so badly? God is like Dr. Frankenstein.

God is a symbol of the chaos of the world

That sounds right. It certainly sounds more honest then claiming there's a god that behaves like a man. Heaven is like a cheap reward dangling in my face. No thanks. Nothingness, on the other hand, would be a precious gift.

[mosespa]

1. Just another egotistical authority figure, eh? What gives god the right to create such vulnerable creatures who can be hurt so badly? God is like Dr. Frankenstein.


2. That sounds right. It certainly sounds more honest then claiming there's a god that behaves like a man. Heaven is like a cheap reward dangling in my face. No thanks. Nothingness, on the other hand, would be a precious gift.

1. What gives ANYONE the right to create ANYTHING? Mind you, all human creations are even more fragile than God's...because man's creations can't heal themselves:D

From what I understand, God created humanity for companionship for Him...but then man got self-absorbed and rather pleased with itself and pushed God away.

How is God like Dr. Frankenstein? Victor never made a tree (to borrow a House-ism) or, for that matter, dirt.

Like the joke about the scientist who approaches God and says "we've figured out how you created man from dust and we can do it ourselves now."

"Really?" God asks, intrigued. "Show me."

The scientist bends over to pick up a handful of dirt.

"Uh-uh," God admonishes the scientist. "That's mine. Make your own."



2. Have you ever experienced nothingness? How can you be sure that it's better than anything?

As for "a god that behaves like a man," I don't see God that way (however, by now I think it should be a given that I don't worship the same God most other religious folk do.)

The human-like attributes, I believe, are simply man making assumptions that God must behave in a manner similar to ours.

It's man trying to make God in his own image.

That NEVER makes for a believable God, imo.

[iwantmypinkfloydnow]

Mind you, all human creations are even more fragile than God's...because man's creations can't heal themselves:D

Actually recent engineering is changing that as a quick google will show: http://www.google.com/search?q=self+healing+material

Also Idisaffect, creationist use the fact that the human body is so resilient in a tough environment as a reason why God "created" us, so I wouldn't use their own words against them just yet. They have other weaker spots that you can target though

Heaven is like a cheap reward dangling in my face.

That statement reminds me of this: http://ml.hoogerbrugge.com/

Check out number 79

[Idisaffect]

Thanks for that, iwantmypinkfloydnow.

Like the joke about the scientist who approaches God and says "we've figured out how you created man from dust and we can do it ourselves now."

"Really?" God asks, intrigued. "Show me."

The scientist bends over to pick up a handful of dirt.

"Uh-uh," God admonishes the scientist. "That's mine. Make your own."?

That's a good one.
Mosespa, you have a sharp mind and I see what you're showing me. I don't disagree.

BTW, I should have said "their" god is like Frankenstein.

2. Have you ever experienced nothingness?

No. I hope it lives up to it's name. In which case I wont experience it.

(You don't experience nothingness)

[mosespa]

No. I hope it lives up to it's name. In which case I wont experience it.

(You don't experience nothingness)

Are you sure of that? I mean, it makes sense on a conceptual level...nothingness would obviously have to include the absence of the consciousness of nothingness.

But...(hang with me here for a second,)...what if it IS possible to experience that nothingness?

Forget the lake of fire and brimstone...what "Hell" truly is is the mere absence of God.

Imagine for a second that instead of mere flesh and bone, you are also a being of energy.

Wait...you don't have to imagine that. I believe that science has empirically proven that energy is a pretty important factor in the make up of a human being.

Now...if energy cannot be created or destroyed, it's form can only be changed (much like matter,) then it stands to reason, I think, that SOMETHING becomes of the energy you are after your body ceases to function.

Imagine for a second that your conciousness is a part of that energy.

Now, imagine that "God" is the source of all energy...including the energy that is your consciouness. There are two basic possibilities that I see here (if this is the case:)

1. That energy either rejoins the source

or

2. It doesn't.

This is going to sound rather hypocritical coming as it does from such a staunch individualist...but I'd rather my energy rejoin with the source.

Maybe I'll power up or something.

Of course, I could be horribly wrong. But as my hero Greg House once said "I find it difficult to operate on the opposite assumption."

Thanks for the kind words about my mind, by the way.

It's good to know that the years of subjecting it to various mind altering chemicals hasn't dulled the edge.

[PublicImage]

Aw damnit. I go away from this site for a few days and this thread becomes an uphill struggle to catch up with. Hopefully I'll get around to formulating a response some time soon.

[Vlad The Impaler]

Keep up the good work Mossy....I don't even feel I have to contribute to this topic. Run with it son.

.

[iwantmypinkfloydnow]

Wait...you don't have to imagine that. I believe that science has empirically proven that energy is a pretty important factor in the make up of a human being.

I think your mistaking elctrophysiology (which is all internal) with the belief of the "energy field."

When it comes to science and the New Age esoteric sense of energy, there is nothing that I know of that involves consciousness.

Consciousness' source is the human brain composed of chemical and electrical components. There is nothing supernatural about it and there has been no evidence that I know of that involves to the connection to the supernatural energy that many people believe in.

[mosespa]

1. I think your mistaking elctrophysiology (which is all internal) with the belief of the "energy field."


2. Consciousness' source is the human brain composed of chemical and electrical components.

1. Ummm, no; I'm not. I don't even know what that's about.

2. THIS is what I'm talking about. That electrical part...electricity is energy, yes? Energy can be neither created nor destroyed...only it's form can be changed.

Into what, becomes the question.

[iwantmypinkfloydnow]

THIS is what I'm talking about. That electrical part...electricity is energy, yes? Energy can be neither created nor destroyed...only it's form can be changed. Into what, becomes the question.

Actually it works a bit differently than that. In matter you have electrons spinning around the nucleus, to make them move from atom to atom, you need a pump. Brain cells do this through chemical reactions (if I'm not mistaken). The chemical reaction creates the energy necessary to move the electrons.

However the moment the electrons stop moving, the energy dissipates as heat or some other form. A form that is useless that doesn't do work. That is the inevitable law of entropy.

Even though energy is neither created nor destroyed like matter, it eventually disperses and becomes useless.

I hypothesize that the source of consciousness are the cells themselves, not the electricity they produce. In physiology, we've been taught that the electricity is just a way for the neuron cells to communicate with each other.

Think about all those poor people who've had lobotomies or Alzheimer. They've had brain cells destroyed and their mentality changed. Sure they have consciousness, but that's only the start of what makes us human (you need to add on mentality to the mix). If electricity/energy was the source of their mentality, than why hasn't it filled in the gaps that the cells have left?

[mosespa]

A very interesting and illuminating question you ask at the end, Vahan.

Perhaps it's because the destruction of the brain cells has changed the structure of the brain in such a manner that the energy flows differently, resulting in said differences?

I don't really know about such things, to be honest.

A good reference to entropy, as well...was wondering when someone was going to bring that up.

Here's the thing, though...entropy only applies to the physical realm. We're discussing a metaphysical subject here, albeit one with certain ties to the physical world.

I don't think that entropy applies in terms of metaphysics. Unless, maybe in the sense that entropy applies to those who have not..."advanced" (for lack of a better term) to whatever afterlife may be.

[iwantmypinkfloydnow]

Metaphysical, supernatural, pseudoscience; it's all the same. You can't observe it, you can't prove it nor disprove, nor can you experiment with it. It has no holdings in reality and the only place these hypothesis existence is in our imagination.

Maybe after death we are freed from our limited sensing of the world, but that realm can only be imagined, not observed. So I expect that we'll all be surprised after death ( I hope the things I do today don't eventually lead to me suffering an eternity of punishment).

And this is what pisses me off about the whole Science/Religion debacle. One's rooted in reality and the other in imagination/belief. YOU CAN'T MIX WATER AND OIL!!! so why try mixing science and religion? This is why homeopathy, creationism, UFO's, cryptozoology, and conspiracy theories are complete failures.

Some things in life is bland, we have to live with that, but if Christianity has taught me anything is that to be grateful for the smallest things in life. So I am happy that the natural world has given me consciousness, a family, friends, intuition, computers, a sturdy-well-functioning body, psychedelic drugs, booze, and sex.

Oh and the fedora; I love wearing those things.

(wait, what the; holy crap you still remember my name , don't hunt me down mos. I never meant to deconstruct your beliefs. Here take this offering of steaks & beers to appease you with.)

[mosespa]

1. Metaphysical, supernatural, pseudoscience; it's all the same. You can't observe it, you can't prove it nor disprove, nor can you experiment with it. It has no holdings in reality and the only place these hypothesis existence is in our imagination.

2. Maybe after death we are freed from our limited sensing of the world, but that realm can only be imagined, not observed. So I expect that we'll all be surprised after death

3. ( I hope the things I do today don't eventually lead to me suffering an eternity of punishment).

4. And this is what pisses me off about the whole Science/Religion debacle. One's rooted in reality and the other in imagination/belief. YOU CAN'T MIX WATER AND OIL!!! so why try mixing science and religion? This is why homeopathy, creationism, UFO's, cryptozoology, and conspiracy theories are complete failures.

5. Some things in life is bland, we have to live with that, but if Christianity has taught me anything is that to be grateful for the smallest things in life. So I am happy that the natural world has given me consciousness, a family, friends, intuition, computers, a sturdy-well-functioning body, psychedelic drugs, booze, and sex.

6. Oh and the fedora; I love wearing those things.

7. (wait, what the; holy crap you still remember my name , don't hunt me down mos. I never meant to deconstruct your beliefs. Here take this offering of steaks & beers to appease you with.)

1. Right...and all we're doing here is letting our imaginations roam and see where it leads us. But, please keep in mind that just because humans cannot "sense" something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I mean...flatworms only experience two dimensions (our scientific findings tell us,) so...while the third dimension may not exist TO a flatworm, it cannot be said that it's "not there," because we know that it is.

There MAY JUST BE dimensions that we cannot perceive. Sure, we can't prove it one way or the other...that still has no bearing on it's status of existence. It's one of our limitations, if you will.

It's a handicap that we refuse to acknowledge things that we cannot directly experience. We see all around us, every day, examples of things which exist to us yet not to other forms of life.

Dogs cannot see colours, we are told. Does this mean that colours don't exist at all? Well...they certainly don't for the dog. But is the dog the only form of life?

Uh...I'm gonna go with "no."

2. I totally agree with you on this. I certainly expect to be quite surprised...I'm just hoping that it's a pleasant one.

3. And THIS is where religions come from.

I feel that stands to reason that if there's a belief in something happening to one after they die and if that belief system seems to have been around for as long as humans have been keeping record, there must be something to it.

I simply don't believe that some wealthy, powerful individuals could create THAT successful a scam. My faith in human ability isn't quite that high, you see.

4. But, here's the thing...you are expressing things individually rather than dualistically. Oil and water are polar opposites, yes; they are a Yin and Yang, if you will. You CAN reconcile oil with water, conceptually. Since all we can do on this subject is hypothesize, that's really all that matters, anyway...the conceptual realm.

Think of oil as one half of a specific whole...and water is the other half.

5. Find your zen where you can, man.

6. Can you please tell me where to find one? Not even the tres-chic antique stores in this area have any...and I really want one.

7. Yes, I remember your name, dude. Don't worry. I'm far too much of a pussy to stalk someone down and initiate a physical confrontation.

Besides, the only proper use of physical force is in retaliation. That's the only time I engage in the use of it. So long as you don't throw a punch at me, I won't throw one at you back.

I accept the offering of steaks and beers, lol...the mighty moss is appeased now.

*dozes off*