jamey1977 wrote:Asthetically, alot of those compositions hold little to someone who wasnt familiar with piper and the singles. It's like a master painter, who once produced great works but then got parkinsons real bad and could no longer paint real well because of the tremors.
I think that Terrapin, Dominoes and Opel are better than anything in Piper
The problem, I think, for most PF fans that can't get into Barrett solo music is that they are expecting it to sound just like Pink Floyd! And since it doesn't, then they deem it worthless. They don't realize that is not supposed to sound like Floyd at all, it's a complete different style. I know quite a few people who hate Pink Floyd's music but love Barrett. They are more into singer songwriter, indie and post punk types of music and not much into classic rock or prog rock. But of course to people that believe that The Beatles, Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin are the alpha and omega of pop music Barrett's sure is going to sound like crap.
jamey1977 wrote:It's like a master painter, who once produced great works but then got parkinsons real bad and could no longer paint real well because of the tremors. His previous fans are still going to purchase his works and appreciate them and look deeply into them and convince themselves they contain the same virtue and quality as before the artist became disabled.
Even though Barrett obviously has some difficulties in performing in his solo years, his songs are so strong that they push those difficulties to the background. Just listen to his vocal lines. Barrett's producer Gilmour reportedly was jealous for Barrett's power to compose melodies spontaneously.
danielcaux wrote:But of course to people that believe that The Beatles, Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin are the alpha and omega of pop music Barrett's sure is going to sound like crap.
Especially people who think that music should be perfectly played, will have a hard time. They would hate Barrett's campfire style.
David Smith wrote:I am not writing this as a Syd bashing thread. I'm just kind of wondering if there are a lot of other members of this forum who don't really understand the appeal of Syd for a lot of fans. Don't get me wrong wrong, i like his first solo album and bits of the second, but i would never say they are essential purchases for anyone. The lyrics don't seem to have a whole lot of depth beneath their surrealism, PATGOD has not dated particularly well and i guess it just doesn't hold a candle to the atmospheric and powerful roger efforts to explain the human condition. Maybe i'm missing something though. I guess i'm wondering what the syd fans like so much about his music (and i don't mean that in a 'ha ha you lot have rubbish tatse' kind of way).
This is a good question. Let me say that it is Syd Barrett's music with Pink Floyd that interests me more than his solo works. I cannot completely explain why my ears would rather hear Piper at the Gates of Dawn, rather than say The Wall, but I think it has to do with the combination of memorable and stiking lyrics, with innovative instrumentation. I think that Syd, Roger and Rick all played very well together. I cannot hear Nick as well, and I read that Norman Smith had to play some drum parts for him. I really enjoy how the band can go from three minute pop songs to long instrumentals and still sound like the same band too.
I have also had the chance to listen to some live cuts from the Syd era and I am amazed at the versatility and instrumentation. Sorry but Hans Kellar is wrong. The Pink Floyd were not boring, though they could be repetative, there is still a lot of detail in their work. In the end, whether it is with studio or live cuts, I find something new. The music never gets old on the ear. It always sounds fresh to me.
Now please do not think I do not appreciate the rest of Floyd's music. Ummagumma is a strong contender with Piper at the Gates of Dawn as my favorite LP. I think it is for the same reason, the beautiful fusion of live cuts and studio experiemtation. I find it fascinating.
When it comes to Syd's solo work, it is more of a drag. The beauty of his lyrics is not accompanied well, though Soft machine give it a good try.
I try not to analyze Syd's lyrics and music as products of some kind of intellectual songwriter. I don't think he would have wanted that, either. I enjoy Syd's music (save for The Madcap Laughs because that album is disturbing and off-putting) for the child-like impressions that they leave on me. It's almost like he tapped into his inner child when writing those songs. Having been able to accomplish that as a rock musician is something that I admire. In turn, I can relate to him as an individual, since we tend to act on the eccentric end of the social spectrum.
I honestly don't get his music myself. I do believe that it was imaginative, painting interestingly strange lyrical pictures that contained sparks of profound thinking at times and nonsense at others. Hardly inspired, though. Mr. mosespa referred to the early Pink Floyd as the "poor man's Beatles" in another thread and I can see elements of that, as well as a sort-of "poor man's T-Rex and David Bowie."
I have studied Astronomy Domine musically and find it has an excellent blues and jazz-inspired chord progression. Jugband Blues is a rare look into the unraveling of an artistic mind, where the lines between fantasy and reality are blurred and skewed.
Personally though, I choose to pass on his music. It's something I can totally live without. No disrespect towards any of the Syd aficionados here, just a little outside of my realm of music that personally touches me.
pastchristmas wrote:I honestly don't get his music myself. I do believe that it was imaginative, painting interestingly strange lyrical pictures that contained sparks of profound thinking at times and nonsense at others. Hardly inspired, though. Mr. mosespa referred to the early Pink Floyd as the "poor man's Beatles" in another thread and I can see elements of that, as well as a sort-of "poor man's T-Rex and David Bowie."
I find it interesting that you described his music as a "poor man's T-Rex and David Bowie", especially the latter, since Bowie has cited Syd Barrett as an influence in his work. I guess the protégé has surpassed the master?
I'm pretty certain that I have heard most of the early Floyd w/Syd and I have also listened to a good deal of Syd's solo work and while I too cannot honestly say that I appreciate all the musical nuances, I know for certain that Pink Floyd wouldn't be the Pink Floyd that we know and love w/o Syd. The reason I know this is because all three founding members and David Gilmour have said repeatedly and without exception that Floyd began with Syd...his musicianship, his writing and eventually even his illness inspired Floyd's most creative work. Simply said, without Syd, no Floyd.
Enish wrote:I find it interesting that you described his music as a "poor man's T-Rex and David Bowie", especially the latter, since Bowie has cited Syd Barrett as an influence in his work. I guess the protégé has surpassed the master?
It was mainly a play on mosespa's words. It would have been more accurate to say that he sounded a lot more like T-Rex or Bowie than the Beatles.
Enish wrote:I find it interesting that you described his music as a "poor man's T-Rex and David Bowie", especially the latter, since Bowie has cited Syd Barrett as an influence in his work. I guess the protégé has surpassed the master?
It was mainly a play on mosespa's words. It would have been more accurate to say that he sounded a lot more like T-Rex or Bowie than the Beatles.
True, but there was still a Beatles influence there, mainly because of the playful melodies that a lot of his early stuff had. "The Scarecrow" seems to come to mind as I'm typing this.
Aside from someone's personal like or dislike of Syd Barrett's music, this talk of Pink Floyd being a lesser version of the Beatles or Bolan and Bowie is silly, as it has been mentioned before that Bowie and Bolan both imitated Syd Barrett. The Barrett Pink Floyd were influenced by the Beatles as well as Dylan, the Byrds, Stones, Kinks, Fugs, Mothers of Invention. And in turn they influenced the Beatles as well as other contemporaries like the Who, Soft Machine, and Jimi Hendrix. They had strong influence on the styles of Marc Bolan, David Bowie and Brian Eno, whose commercial successes came in the early to mid 70's well after the Barrett Pink Floyd.
In relation to the Barrett PF of 1967 and the Beatles comparisons, there are are few things that might be worth consideration. Age, studio experience, songwriting experience, sympathetic or unsympathetic producers, and different types of innovation: style, technique, content, and technological use in instrumentation and in the studio. The Beatles had 7 studio albums under their belt before recording 'Sgt Pepper' and they had 3 contributing songwriters. Their influence was an unavoidable one upon all the 'pop' groups working in England and the States in the mid to late 60's for both their songcraft and studio innovations, though Barrett's Pink Floyd never aped them or any other band from the period. Pink Floyd were very influenced by the studio innovations and engineering used on 'Revolver' and Lennon's single 'Strawberry Fields Forever'.
The closest thing in the Barrett Pink Floyd canon to a Beatles song however, would be late 67 'Jugband Blues' and Rick Wright's 'Paintbox' both in relation to 'A Day in the Life'. The Beatles-like scored orchestra section in 'Jugband Blues was added at the insistence of producer Norman Smith contrary to Barrett's wishes. The obvious precursor to 'Jugband Blues' collage-like structure with multiple and distinctive parts is 'A Day in the Life', but 'Jugband Blues' exudes an entirely different mood, not an imitation.
The use of vocal harmonies in the songs on 'Piper' was influenced by former Beatles engineer and PF producer Norman Smith as well, for example 'Matilda Mother' and 'Chapter 24'. Songs like 'Interstellar Overdrive', 'Astronomy Domine', and 'Lucifer Sam' are very far from anything the Beatles had created and were all around innovative in terms of structure and sound, very original pieces of music. I would guess that 'Lucifer Sam' inspired Lennon a bit with his hardest song to date, the post-Piper 'Hey Bulldog'. Likely a coincidence, but if you watch the Paul McCartney video for the post-Piper 'Fool on the Hill' it's uncanny how similar it looks to the 65-66 footage of Syd Barrett in the Gog Magog Hills from 'Syd Barrett's First Trip', which I can't imagine Paul McCartney having ever seen. Anyway, a young man in similar dress in the wild contemplating nature, the McCartney one appears to be more 'acted'.
McCartney has stated his liking of the early Pink Floyd, going so far as to defend their 'freak-out' music on national television in 1967, talking about the breaking of "rules about how to live, and how to make music" as well as watching them perform at the Marquee in '66 and UFO in early '67. EMI or Norman Smith would likely have never given Pink Floyd the time of day had McCartney not vocalized his interest in them. McCartney from the BBC Scene Special:'It's So Far Out it's Straight Down', highlighting Pink Floyd's performance at UFO of 'Interstellar Overdrive' and 'Matilda Mother'.
"They're are talking about things that are a bit new. They're talking about things which people don't really know too much about yet. People put them down and say 'wierdo' or 'psychedelic' and other things...It's really just what's going on around. And they're just trying to look into it a bit. These are the people looking into what else there is and what the possibilities are...Its a good environment, there's a whole gang of people...and it's nice to be with them".
In regards to Barrett's guitar playing innovations guitar players Pete Townshend, Fred Frith, and Daevid Allen of Gong have all acknowledged his influence. Townshend specifically took Eric Clapton to UFO club in 1967 to see Barrett play the guitar, his use of echo effects was groundbreaking at the time and his slashing chords were unique, as well as his otherworldly electric slide 'glissando' technique. Daevid Allen of Soft Machine has said that Barrett taught him the glissando slide. These were non-blues based innovations at a time when musicians were seeking freedom from established structures and it was hard not to recognize that in Barrett and Pink Floyd, the Barrett vocal delivery, the guitar technique, the heavy up front bass of Waters, Wright's organ carpets, Mason's detailed drumming, and the childlike songs with oddly poetic lyrics of Barrett, and very long improvised jams. Later in 1967 Pink Floyd shared the stage with Cream and Jimi Hendrix. Tunes like Reaction in G, Vegetable Man, and Scream Thy Last Scream exhibited an unparalled anarchism for the year 1967 and are the closest thing to punk music that can be found in 1967. Pete Townshend on Jimi Hendrix's style of guitar playing and where, in part, it derived from:
"He(Hendrix) managed to build this bridge between true blues guitar — the kind that Eric Clapton had been battling with for years and years — and modern sounds, the kind of Syd Barrett-meets-Townshend sound, the wall of screaming guitar sound that U2 popularized. He brought the two together brilliantly."
Barrett's Pink Floyd shared the stage at a concert in Spalding on May 29, 1967 with Cream and Jimi Hendrix, and later of course touring with Hendrix just prior to Barrett leaving the band.
Clapton from Rolling Stone Magazine in May 1968(Barrett had stopped performing live with PF a few months prior and was officially out of the band in April of 1968, one month prior to this Clapton interview)
RS: Who do you feel are the best groups in the British scene, excluding the Beatles and Rolling Stones who aren't performing any more?
EC: Yes, recording music has become so far out that you can't relate it to live music at all. I don't think you have to. If you're curious about performers, the Pink Floyd is one I like very much among live groups.
RS: What does the Pink Floyd do?
EC: Very strange group. The nearest thing you would have to them here -- well, I can't even think of a group you can relate them to. Very freaky. They're not really psychedelic. They do things like play an hour set that's just one number. They are into a lot of electronic things. They're also very funny. They're nice, they really are a very nice group. They're unambitious and they give you a nice feeling watching them. They're not trying to put anything over.
Pink Floyd exhibited a much harder and experimental sound in their live shows, some of it comes across in the album versions of IO and Astronomy Domine. It's hard to imagine the Beatles recording something as hard as 'Helter Skelter' or as avant garde as 'Revolution 9' without the added impetus of Pink Floyd and the other Underground bands at UFO stretching the boundaries of 'pop' music, though the Beatles influence on Pink Floyd surely out-weighed PF's influence on them. The Beatles were the elder statesmen of rock'n'roll and Pink Floyd were just starting out. There was a large Helter Skelter ride inside the Alexandra Palace where the 1967 14 Hour Technicolor Daydream concert took place. Pink Floyd headlined and Lennon and McCartney were both in attendance at the event.
Back to the Beatles:
John Lennon was born in 1940, 'Sgt Pepper' recorded and released in 1967.
Syd Barrett was born in 1946, 'Piper' recorded and released in 1967.
Most of the Beatles early albums consisted of half cover songs and half originals, their third 'Hard Day's Night' consisted of all Beatles-penned tunes and from their 6th record on, Rubber Soul, the remainder of their albums consisted of only originals. Lennon, McCartney, and Harrison all contributed songs in addition to the cover songs.
In 1962 the Beatles backed singer Tony Sheridan in the studio.
Please, Please Me 1963, their debut album.
With the Beatles 1963
Hard Days Night 1964
Beatles For Sale 1964
Help 1965
Rubber Soul 1965
Revolver 1966
Sgt Pepper 1967
Pink Floyd's debut was all original tunes composed primarily by Syd Barrett, with one of the 11 songs composed by Waters and two credited as full group collaborations, though both of the group collaborations were improvised instrumentals starting and deriving from a Syd Barrett intro, the 'Interstellar Overdrive' riff and the 'PowrTocH' mouth rythmn, "baBump Chu Chuu, baBump Chu Chuu"
It is a phoenomenal debut in my opinion. Piper at the Gates of Dawn 1967, Barrett was 21 years old when this record was recorded and released, he never recorded with PF beyond his 21st year. Syd was the youngest in the group, 3 years younger than Roger Waters.
'Sgt Pepper' was the Beatles 8th full length album.
'Piper' was Pink Floyd's 1st full length album, their debut.
'Dark Side of the Moon' was Pink Floyd's 8th full length album, 5 years after 'Piper'.
Norman Smith, producer of Pink Floyd's debut album, was by all accounts not sympathetic to the music that the Pink Floyd were playing. The band and producer didn't get along on a personal or musical level, though Smith must be credited, for good or ill, with helping to make 'Piper' a more commercial sounding album.
The Beatles producer George Martin was more than sympathetic in relation to some of the Beatles more original flights in the early days, he was trusted by them, arranging many classical backings starting with 'Yesterday', encouraging their songcraft, helping facilitate new sounds and recording methods. Referred to by many as the 5th Beatle, his role cannot be downplayed in the repeated successes of the Beatles.
It is interesting to see a timeline of when blues, jazz, rock n roll, experimental composers etc were born. It is sometimes suprising who were literal contemporaries, and it shows the PF being a younger band, with most of Barrett's close contemporaries not being well known until the 1970's. John Lennon is only four years away from his idol Buddy Holly and 6 years away from Barrett. I included people like John Cage and Stockhausen who were introduced into the language of rock'n'roll music most prominently by Pink Floyd and a few others like the Velvet Underground and Mothers of Invention. Pink Floyd pulled together various styles in a unique way. Rock'n'roll, jazz, folk, avant garde, pop, dancehall, and classical in a way that was wholly unique at the time. The whole genres of Krautrock and Spacerock owe a huge debt to 'Interstellar Overdrive' alone.
Leadbelly 1888
Jimmie Rodgers 1897
Sidney Bechet 1897
George Gershwin 1898 Pink Anderson 1900
Louis Armstrong 1901
Coleman Hawkins 1904
Louis Jordan 1908
Howlin Wolf 1910
Django Reinhardt 1910
Robert Johnson 1911
Bill Monroe 1911 Floyd Council 1911
Woody Guthrie 1912
John Cage 1912
Muddy Waters 1913
Les Paul 1915
Billie Holiday 1915
Charlie Christian 1916
Thelonious Monk 1917
Charlie Parker 1920
Charles Mingus 1922
Hank Williams 1923
Gyorgi Ligeti 1923
Chuck Berry 1926
Miles Davis 1926
John Coltrane 1926
Bo Diddley 1928
Karlheinz Stockhausen 1928
Link Wray 1929
Ornette Coleman 1930
Ike Turner 1931
Little Richard 1932
Charlie Feathers 1932
Johnny Cash 1932
Carl Perkins 1932
James Brown 1933
Johnny Burnette 1934
Leonard Cohen 1934
Jerry lee Lewis 1935
Elvis Presley 1935
Gene Vincent 1935
Albert Ayler 1936
Buddy Holly 1936
Roy Orbison 1936
Bill Wyman 1936
Ben E King 1938
Etta James 1938
Eddie Cochran 1938
Alan Vega (Suicide) 1938
Daevid Allen ( Soft Machine, Gong)1938
Tina Turner 1939
Phil Spector 1939
Grace Slick 1939
Jaki Liebezeit (CAN) 1939 John Lennon 1940 Ringo Starr 1940
Frank Zappa 1940
Smokey Robinson 1940
Keith Rowe (AMM Music)1940
Otis Redding 1941
Steve Cropper 1941
Bob Dylan 1941
Don van Vliet (Captain Beefheart) 1941
Dave Brock ( Hawkwind ) 1941
Hank Marvin (the Shadows) 1941
Bobby Fuller 1942 Paul McCartney 1942
Brian Wilson 1942
Aretha Franklin 1942
Brian Jones 1942
Jimi Hendrix 1942
Lou Reed 1942
John Cale 1942
Jerry Garcia 1942
Janis Joplin 1943
Sylvestor Sly Stone 1943
Jim Morrison 1943 George Harrison 1943
Mick Jagger 1943 Richard Wright 1943 Roger Waters 1943
Joni Mitchel 1943
Penny Rimbaud (Crass) 1943
Ray Davies 1944
Jeff Beck 1944
Eggar Froese (Tangerine Dream)1944
Kevin Ayers (Soft Machine) 1944
Jimmy Page 1944 Nick Mason 1944
Van Morrison 1945
Arthur Lee 1945
Pete Townshend 1945
Eric Clapton 1945
Robert Wyatt 1945
Lemmy Kilminster (Hawkwind, Motorhead) 1945
Neil Young 1945
Bryan Ferry 1945 Syd Barrett 1946
Robert Fripp 1946
Lux Interior (Cramps) 1946 David Gilmour 1946
Klaus Dinger (Kraftwerk, Neu)1946
Marc Bolan 1947
George Clinton 1947
Warren Zevon 1947
Florian Schneider (Kraftwerk) 1947
David Bowie 1947
Iggy Pop 1947
Alice Cooper 1948
Johnny Ramone 1948
Peter Hammill 1948
Nick Drake 1948
Brian Eno 1948
Tony Iommi 1948
Fred Frith (Matching Mole, Henry Cow) 1949
Fred 'Sonic' Smith 1949
Tom Verlaine (Television) 1949
Stevie Wonder 1950
Tom Petty 1950
Mark Mothersbaugh (Devo)1950
Peter Gabriel 1950
Michael Rother (Neu, Kraftwerk) 1950
Genesis P Orridge(Psychic TV, Throbbing Gristle)1950
Chrissie Hynde 1951
Dee Dee Ramone 1951
Joey Ramone 1951
Sting 1951
Johnny Thunders 1952
Joe Strummer 1952
David Thomas (Pere Ubu) 1953
Robyn Hitchcock 1953
Elvis Costello 1954
Angus Young 1955
Glenn Danzig (Misfits)1955
Captain Sensible (Damned)1955
David Vanian (Damned)1956
Johhny Rotten 1956
Ian Curtis 1956
H.R. (Bad Brains) 1956
Mark E Smith 1957
Sid Vicious 1957
Siouxsie Sioux 1957
Shane MacGowan 1957
Peter Murphy (Bauhaus) 1957
Gibby Haynes (Butthole Surfers) 1957
Jello Biafra (Dead Kennedys) 1958
Paul Weller 1958
Grandmaster Flash 1958
Prince 1958
Gary Numan 1958
William Reid (Jesus and Mary Chain) 1958
Thurston Moore 1958
Madonna 1958
Al Jourgensen( Ministry, Revolting Cocks) 1958
Alex Patterson (KLF, the Orb) 1959
Robert Smith (Cure) 1959
David Yow (Scratch Acid, Jesus Lizard) 1960
Wayne Coyne (Flaming Lips) 1961
Andy Moor (the Ex, Dog Faced Hermans) 1962
Kool Keith (Ultramagnetic MC's, Dr Octagon) 1963
Buzz Osbourne (Melvins) 1964
Black Francis (Pixies) 1965
Bjork (Sugarcubes)1965
Stephen Malkmus 1966
Rick Astley 1966
Kurt Cobain 1967
Rakim 1968
John Frusciante 1970
Will Oldham 1970
Debbie Gibson 1970
Beck 1970
Snoop Dogg 1971
Biggie Smalls 1972
Cee-Lo Green 1974
Jack White 1975
Danger Mouse 1977
Lil Wayne 1982
Barrett's influence is acknowledged by those people immediatelly following him on the timeline Eno, Frith, Bolan, Bowie, the German Krautrock bands, and the early English punk and New Wave bands like the Damned, Sex Pistols, Soft Boys, Bauhaus, Jesus and Mary Chain, but it is telling that a number of his predessors were influenced by him as well. Daevid Allen, Pete Townshend, Paul McCartney, David Brock, Kevin Ayers, Jimi Hendrix, Edgar Froese, Roger Waters, Jimmy Page, Bryan Ferry. And then those further down the list who were not even born by the time Syd Barrett's tenure with Pink Floyd had ended. That's a pretty impressive legacy for 3 records, and only one recorded with a cohesive band acting as a unit.
professor frogmorton wrote:from their 6th record on, Rubber Soul, the remainder of their albums consisted of only originals
This little correction is absolutely negligible in your post, and it doesn't change or challenge a single thing you wrote there, but the Beatles did include a cover version of a traditional "Maggie May" on their "Let It Be" album.
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