New Pink Floyd Album 'The Endless River'

[The Gunner's Dream]

Is the Waters bashing really necessary? This is after all a thread about The Endless River so inclusion of Waters in the discussion should be minimal really. Can you only defend what Gilmour writes by comparing it to stuff you deem inferior? For the record, you cannot say one melody is "stronger or weaker" than another. That is impossible to quantify and it really comes down to whether you like the melody or not and how memorable you find it to be. As for this odd debate about "Vera", personally I like the piece but it works best within the context of The Wall, sandwiched between "Nobody Home" and "Bring the Boys Back Home".

[Flathead]

Waters writes poor melodies

He was the chief songwriter for one of the greatest bands of all time. He is a melodic genius, lol. Are you high? He wrote the melody for Money, Shine On, Wish You Were Here, Mother, Pigs on the Wing, Brain Damage/Eclispe, Us and Them, etc.

I'm just shocked at some of the misinformed comments here.

[raisemyrent]

No I'm not high. He struck gold with the wall (primarily because it appealed to a very broad fan base due to its concept) and when he was a band member and not a despot the band put out their best work. Then his solo career has been "humbling" (his own words) and stuck in time. Hardly genius territory. Good lyrics. In the 70s. The solo stuff tends to go over the top (and the Arabs kill the Jews and the Jews kill the... kinda crap)

The waters bashing comes from comments like Vera is better than the entire TER or Waters would've made it into a masterpiece. He thinks amused to death is a masterpiece (his words). Yawn.

I don't particlaulry dislike roger. I just think he and some of his fans think his work is better than it is and that pink floyd without waters is crap. Those are extreme opinions and independent of each other.

[Flathead]

Dude,

He wrote the bulk of the melodies for Pink Floyd from 1969-1983. This period of Pink Floyd is only met by Bob Dylan or the Beatles. He was a melodic genius. the post-Floyd work from all members is irrelevant.

[Hudini]

He wrote the melody for Money, Shine On, Wish You Were Here, Mother, Pigs on the Wing, Brain Damage/Eclispe, Us and Them, etc.

You just keep backing your opinion with partially correct or completely incorrect information.

While there is no doubt that Waters wrote the major part of Pink Floyd's catalog during the 1970s and early 1980s, some of the songs you list feature minimal interventions on his part. Although he did write lyrics for all of those songs, it's melodies we're talking about now.

Music for SOYCD was written collectively by Waters, Gilmour and Wright, where it was Gilmour who came up with the guitar theme. There is no real evidence on who really wrote what melody part, but it's safe to assume that Gilmour and Wright each wrote their own solos (which make up the bulk of the song) in which case Waters would most probably be responsible for the harmonic structure of the song... Which is nothing more than a blues standard, for what it's worth.

Again, music for WYWH was written by Gilmour and the whole thing just screams "Gilmour" all the way through. The song does feature lyrics which objectively rank among Waters' finest, but that does not earn him an extra credit for composition.

As for 'Us And Them', unless you are just a casual fan you must be aware of the fact that its music was completely written by Wright back in 1970 under the name of 'The Violent Sequence'. Again, Waters adding lyrics to some else's music does not make him a "melodic genius".

About the other songs you mentioned, you are correct. Some of them are not really melodic masterpieces though.

[Flathead]

Music for SOYCD was written collectively by Waters, Gilmour and Wright, where it was Gilmour who came up with the guitar theme. There is no real evidence on who really wrote what melody part,

The lyric writer usually writes the melody, as the words have "beats".

but it's safe to assume that Gilmour and Wright each wrote their own solos (which make up the bulk of the song)

Solos aren't a credit.

[Hudini]

The lyric writer usually writes the melody, as the words have "beats".

Well, how do you explain a situation where one person gets credited for writing lyrics and the composer credits go to another person alone? Or when lyrics count differently than the music? Or when someone writes music to a poem by a long-deceased author, per instance Syd Barrett's 'Golden Hair'?

This is just your assumption and you cannot present it as an axiom.

Solos aren't a credit.

Leave it, will you?

[mastaflatch]

As far as vocal melodies go, I don't rate either Waters, Gilmour or Wright as mindblowing melodists with Gilmour being the most creative one of them in that aspect. Barrett, on the other hand, was a very creative melodist and songwriter from the get-go, a natural talent if you like.
Some people tend to mistake a good song for a great melody (or worse, a good song for a success or an earworm). Of course, they're not mutually exclusive. Pink Floyd, the band that took shape after Barrett left, were master arrangers, forward-thinking conceptualists (well, Roger was anyway) and brilliant/idiosyncratic instrumentists. They also had a very powerful imagery stuck to them. Their music is melodic but most of the vocal lines are, to these ears at least, quite bland. Money was cited above, well, that very vocal melody only mimics the memorable 7/8 bass riff. It's not a great vocal melody, it actually sounds wooden, very rudimentary. It works in its context but there's nothing laudable there as far as melody goes. I'll go out on a limb and even say that it's one of the stupidest sounding vocal line in the whole Floyd catalogue.
When you play a vocal melody on a piano, it's plain as day if it's good or just a vehicle for lyrics.

[raisemyrent]

Very good points.
Look up the Gilmour demo for his part on comfortably numb for a perfect example of melodies written ahead of lyrics, by the way.
Fun fact, I read ages ago that Gilmour scats his guitar solos to compose them (not all the time of course) and then learns what he scat/whistled on his guitar. While he's an amazing guitar player, it reminds me of a Miles Davis quote that says something like the ultimate goal of an instrumentalist is to be able to play whatever comes into your head without any technical limitations.
Ps I also remember reading that wish you were here was pretty much the only song for which the lyrics were written first and the music made to match.

[Flathead]

As far as vocal melodies go, I don't rate either Waters, Gilmour or Wright as mindblowing melodists with Gilmour being the most creative one of them in that aspect. Barrett, on the other hand, was a very creative melodist and songwriter from the get-go, a natural talent if you like.
Some people tend to mistake a good song for a great melody (or worse, a good song for a success or an earworm). Of course, they're not mutually exclusive. Pink Floyd, the band that took shape after Barrett left, were master arrangers, forward-thinking conceptualists (well, Roger was anyway) and brilliant/idiosyncratic instrumentists. They also had a very powerful imagery stuck to them. Their music is melodic but most of the vocal lines are, to these ears at least, quite bland. Money was cited above, well, that very vocal melody only mimics the memorable 7/8 bass riff. It's not a great vocal melody, it actually sounds wooden, very rudimentary. It works in its context but there's nothing laudable there as far as melody goes. I'll go out on a limb and even say that it's one of the stupidest sounding vocal line in the whole Floyd catalogue.
When you play a vocal melody on a piano, it's plain as day if it's good or just a vehicle for lyrics.

You don't sell 200 + million records, become the most critically acclaimed 60's/70's artist not named Dylan or the Beatles and influence generations because you couldn't write a melody.

They were masters of melody. Money, WYWH, Mother, Us and Them, Brain Damage, etc. These are all ear-worms.

[mastaflatch]

As far as vocal melodies go, I don't rate either Waters, Gilmour or Wright as mindblowing melodists with Gilmour being the most creative one of them in that aspect. Barrett, on the other hand, was a very creative melodist and songwriter from the get-go, a natural talent if you like.
Some people tend to mistake a good song for a great melody (or worse, a good song for a success or an earworm). Of course, they're not mutually exclusive. Pink Floyd, the band that took shape after Barrett left, were master arrangers, forward-thinking conceptualists (well, Roger was anyway) and brilliant/idiosyncratic instrumentists. They also had a very powerful imagery stuck to them. Their music is melodic but most of the vocal lines are, to these ears at least, quite bland. Money was cited above, well, that very vocal melody only mimics the memorable 7/8 bass riff. It's not a great vocal melody, it actually sounds wooden, very rudimentary. It works in its context but there's nothing laudable there as far as melody goes. I'll go out on a limb and even say that it's one of the stupidest sounding vocal line in the whole Floyd catalogue.
When you play a vocal melody on a piano, it's plain as day if it's good or just a vehicle for lyrics.

You don't sell 200 + million records, become the most critically acclaimed 60's/70's artist not named Dylan or the Beatles and influence generations because you couldn't write a melody.

Wrong. But you're also trying to put words in my mouth. So forget it.

They were masters of melody. Money, WYWH, Mother, Us and Them, Brain Damage, etc. These are all ear-worms.

Are you willingly obtuse or is it innate? Before you try to figure it out, I suggest you read my post in full. I won't bother replying to your trolling unless you bother reading what you reply to.

[Hudini]

Ps I also remember reading that wish you were here was pretty much the only song for which the lyrics were written first and the music made to match.

'Sorrow' is another one.

They were masters of melody. Money, WYWH, Mother, Us and Them, Brain Damage, etc. These are all ear-worms.

The fact that some song is an ear worm does not necessarily mean it has a great melody. Even so, ear worms are a completely subjective thing.

[raisemyrent]

Why of course, sorrow, but I meant from the Classic era with Waters. I was paraphrasing an old interview with Gilmour.
Which reminds me, for some, if Waters is credited on something with the Floyd, he wrote EVERYTHING, and the other guys were just robots playing what they were told. While that might be the case for his solo career (and look at the results) that is quite the overstatement, to say the least. Even Waters after Live 8 was saying how he was proud of having been able to sing songs 'he wrote' to such a big audience. Couldn't even say we. Oh right. Lyrics. And my previous point. Never mind.

[Bigmanpigman]

Why of course, sorrow, but I meant from the Classic era with Waters. I was paraphrasing an old interview with Gilmour.
Which reminds me, for some, if Waters is credited on something with the Floyd, he wrote EVERYTHING, and the other guys were just robots playing what they were told. While that might be the case for his solo career (and look at the results) that is quite the overstatement, to say the least. Even Waters after Live 8 was saying how he was proud of having been able to sing songs 'he wrote' to such a big audience. Couldn't even say we. Oh right. Lyrics. And my previous point. Never mind.

I have always admired Roger, a man of many talents, and one of them was recognising very early on how to grab a song credit. The various books written about the band are full of quotes from Roger of how he 'allowed' Nick, or one of the others, to have a credit for a particular track. As we all know, Roger's many talents also required input from others to truly put things together (for me DSOTM is a perfect example of the four of them at the peak of their powers as a working unit). 'Animals' is a favourite album of many Floyd fans (including me). While this album is totally Roger's concept (lyrically) I wonder how well it would have sold, and how it would be remembered, without Dave's guitar work? Yet the only writing credit Dave got was for 'Dogs'. I know there are people on here who can explain the technicalities of song-writing credits (I'm not looking for that btw), but I'm just making the point that on each track on that album Dave was at least 50% responsible for how it turned out.

[Jimi Dean Barrett]

I think it's safe to say the mania I had for a new Pink Floyd album has wore off. I've had a good few days of not listening to it.
But I did play it today and I still like it. Got used to some tracks being longer and shorter than the others.
The really biggest question was why didn't they finish it when they had the chance?
It would have been a perfect send off and close the story earlier if it had been released in 1997.
But then maybe the band would have worried it would be compared a lot more to the album they made in 1967.

And it looks like the UK public have fallen out of love with TER. 17 weeks in and it's down to number 79. And last week it was at 65 which is quite significant in the Pink Floyd50 anniversary campaigns being held off while David Gilmour brings his album out.
Because you could read it as (19)79 and (1965).

I still think TER will return to a high position again soon. Probably on the back of Gilmour's album.
That's far more optimistic than it re-entering after being bought as a tribute!