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[kjek1]

This is where your mask slips and you go into full on Waters fanboy territory

My mask slips?
Funny how you seem to be fully okay with going into full on Gilmour fanboy territory.

The Final Cut is a crap Pink Floyd album in my opinion, and I know I'm not alone in thinking that. It's a an hour of sulking with mediocre tunes. Not Now John is rocky, it's also the worst track on the album and I say that with it being dominated by Gilmour's heavy guitars and vocals.

You're "not alone in thinking that"? Does it matter?
If quantities count, may I remind you that the albums 'Wish Were You Were Here', 'Animals' and 'The Wall' are among the most popular Pink Floyd albums?

What did Gilmour do? What could he do? According to he, Nick and Rick, Waters had his full on "my way or the highway" attitude by then. Of course you'll probably tell us that all 3 of them of liars and the egomaniac who promotes himself as "the creative genius" couldnt possibly commandeer the band in such a way

And you are probably going to tell that Gilmour, Wright and Mason are angles, while Waters is the devil?

Barrett tripped away into the universe, his mother's cellar.
Wright snorts away an album.
Gilmour criticizes an album while writing nothing himself.
Mason races away in a car, leaving drum work to session drummers.
Hey! Let's hide all that by complaining about ambitious Waters being a terrible member!

To be honest Dave and co probably didn't have a great deal to contribute, why would they? They didn't even want to go down the route of having a political album like that.

What creative alternatives did they have themselves?
At least, Waters had a vision for an album.

there's a very clear pattern going from Meddle to TFC, which is that from beyond Wish You Were Here the quality of music receded further and further as Waters really began dominate everything.

I think 'The Wall' is musically one of the best Pink Floyd albums.
And it's one of the most popular Pink Floyd albums/concepts.
Is Waters mostly responsible for this? Then, that's a great job!

a tune like High Hopes is closer to "classic Floyd" than anything Rogers churned out, except maybe for Smell the roses, but that's just a repackaged Have A Cigar/Dogs so I'm not counting cover songs.

'High Hopes' is like revisiting 'Fat Old Sun'.

Anyway you guys that buy into this idea of Waters being the man and the rest merely being there to add a bit of gloss and glitter have probably held that view for decades, and nothing's really going to change your mind, even if all that we know about the band now strongly implies that that's bollocks.

Where are those guys?
I only seem to see a guy who buys into this idea of Gimour being the man.

And the most popular album is a group effort. Even then the most popular track on The Wall is a Dave track, so much so Roger closes his own shows with it

You keep saying what alternatives did they have as if you were there and have some concrete evidence that they had nothing to offer. The point the 3 of them made was that whenever they did have something Roger was having none of it, that's why the 2 of them (the 3rd one having been sacked by the fuhrer) fucked off and lost interest, that's why the band splinted, and that's why the Final Cut is crap.

If you think High Hopes is a revisiting of Fat Old Sun you're a simpleton and I can't help you.

Again, I didn't say Gilmour was the man, I fully acknowledge Roger wrote songs, had the concepts, the lyrics and drove the band on, and that he was the leader of the band's most successful era. The issue is with his sensitive little army of fanboys trying to peddle the myth he essentially was Pink Floyd and the rest were merely a garnish, that includes the unwillingness to look at reality and accept that their best tunes have melodies and solo's coming from Gilmour and Wright. I've already pointed you to further evidence of this, namely in the piss poor MUSICAL quality of 90% of what he's written post The Wall. I'm going by ear, you're essentially choosing to believe what suits your own agenda because....well, it suits your own agenda.

You, Wolfpack and Flathead would genunely give Bieber and One Direction fans a run for their money when it comes to delusions and blinded fanboyism. Still at least two of you are fairly direct, it's the backhaned comments if the resident troll that hamper the board.

I've seen Roger live, I'll see him live again if he plays, I've acknowledged his genius, yet I've got fanboys sulking because I refuse to go along with all this bollocks about him being the band's musical heart

By all means carry on, you absolute weirdos.

[danielcaux]

...that includes the unwillingness to look at reality and accept that their best tunes have melodies and solo's coming from Gilmour and Wright. I've already pointed you to further evidence of this, namely in the piss poor MUSICAL quality of 90% of what he's written post The Wall. I'm going by ear, I'm essentially choosing to believe what suits my own agenda because....well, it suits my wn agenda.

Fixed! You're welcome!

Thanks for clearing up that you indeed have absolutely no evidence at all to back up your imaginary claims that Gilmour and Wright were the ones writing all the good melodies during the 70s. Pure speculation from your part, but since it fits your agendat...

[kjek1]

...that includes the unwillingness to look at reality and accept that their best tunes have melodies and solo's coming from Gilmour and Wright. I've already pointed you to further evidence of this, namely in the piss poor MUSICAL quality of 90% of what he's written post The Wall. I'm going by ear, I'm essentially choosing to believe what suits my own agenda because....well, it suits my wn agenda.

Fixed! You're welcome!

Thanks for clearing up that you indeed have absolutely no evidence at all to back up your imaginary claims that Gilmour and Wright were the ones writing all the good melodies during the 70s. Pure speculation from your part, but since it fits your agendat...

Their musical styles and subsequent works aren't an indicator?

So what's yours and the chuckle brothers evidence that it was Waters?

This should be good

[danielcaux]

Song demos, song credits and all the band members own accounts in books and documentaries. Search for them, listen to them, watch them and read them. Do your homework, it could give you some valuable insights. Unless you still want to live forever in your own imaginary world.

[Wolfpack]

Even then the most popular track on The Wall is a Dave track, so much so Roger closes his own shows with it

Did Gilmour write 'Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2)'?
Gilmour was at most a co-writer on 'The Wall'.

You keep saying what alternatives did they have as if you were there and have some concrete evidence that they had nothing to offer. The point the 3 of them made was that whenever they did have something Roger was having none of it, that's why the 2 of them (the 3rd one having been sacked by the fuhrer) fucked off and lost interest, that's why the band splinted, and that's why the Final Cut is crap.

Really? Gilmour, Wright and Mason wrote concepts which were always turned down by Waters?
Isn't 'Comfortably Numb' a result of Waters even willing to use an unfinished Gilmour solo album outtake?

I've seen Roger live, I'll see him live again if he plays, I've acknowledged his genius, yet I've got fanboys sulking because I refuse to go along with all this bollocks about him being the band's musical heart

You've got fanboys?

Anyway, everyone knows for a fact that Mason is the musical heart of Pink Floyd.

And as for the album 'The Final Cut', which existence seems to haunt you,
it would been that album or just some 'Spare Bricks' or nothing.
Pink Floyd basically had turned into Waters and Gilmour, having a hard time together.

And without Waters, Gilmour Floyd made only two all-new studio albums.
Gilmour basically quit Pink Floyd in 1994, to start a solo career,
to be a full leader like Waters
and hiring Wright as session musician.

Waters also hasn't been very productive.
And 'Smell the Roses' is just more of the same to me. Another political song.

[kjek1]

Another brick? Who rates that as the best track on the wall? I said most popular, not the one that's best known because it's just short enough to get mainstream radio play, that in itself is an indicator of low quality. From my own personal experience another brick isn't held in too high regard by Floyd fans, where as Comfortably Numb is almost always either 1st or 2nd on the list of the greatest Floyd tracks.

I'm sure they didn't have concepts, it's entirely possible they had musical ideas that went beyond the dirge that's on that album. Why do you think it haunts me? Because I don't think it's very good and I'm using it as a clear indicator that Roger wasn't the key melody man in PF? it's just common sense. I shouldn't be surprised by Smell the roses, Roger said on the making of WYWH DVD he still felt he could do Have A Cigar better than Harper (yeah right), I didn't think he'd actually try and do it though

Daniel I own all those packaged up albums with the Demo's and I'm not hearing it. It's really easy to sit there and just say that but where is it? When have the other members ever cited Roger as the main tunesmith? It's beyond tedious. Fuck at least I've given a bit of an explanation for why I'm pretty confident of my assertion, you've got naff all.

[Flathead]

Here are the original Roger Waters demos for The Wall.

Meanwhile, David Gilmour had released a bland Joe Walsh-like album, and Rick Wright released the terrible Wet Dream, both in 1978.

And then Waters presented them with these incredible demos, where he played all the instruments, wrote the lyrics, and created the melodies for one of the greatest selling albums of all time in the Wall, and the greatest solo act grossing tour in the history of music,


Enjoy. For it is in these demos that you understand that Waters really was the creative genius behind the band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIL9XBPoB10


I absolutely love that intro BTW< wish it would've made the cut.

But I'm sure David's 'Short and Sweet" (nice cliche) and Rick's "Cat Cruise" were more compelling and passionate.

that opening to those demos....that is a tortured, driven madman at work there. And you don't sell a gazillion copies of an album because you wrote bad melodies. In fact, you won't sell many albums if youre no good at melodies. ABITW, Mother, GBBS, all fantastic melodies.

[kjek1]

The wall's a million miles away from being the Floyd's best work musically, and the most popular track on it's a Gilmour track so that's another big fat fail from Walter Mitty

[Flathead]

I do prefer Meddle and Animals, but The Wall is still an awesome musical work.

[Kerry King]

The wall's a million miles away from being the Floyd's best work musically, and the most popular track on it's a Gilmour track so that's another big fat fail from Walter Mitty

This is what happens if you carry on with a debate. You go too far the other way. Like when Flathead said Waters sang 50% of the songs. He forgot to add the rest of the information- Waters sang 50% of the songs... on 4 pink floyd albums. Big difference. Less than 50% on all the rest. Except maybe Ummagumma? He also called Waters a founding member but didn't acknowledge the founding member, original songwriter Syd Barrett. At one point he also seems to have claimed Waters did all of the artwork but I'm sure he knows better.

And now you are calling Comfortably Numb a Gilmour track. It's a collaboration. That's why it's great. Pink Floyd was not a single man's vision. It was a team effort. Waters was no more important than Barrett or Gilmour.

So what's the problem really guys? What did Waters do to you that you just just can't stand him at all?

You asked for it. Here's a list of grievances

-Waters started the whole Gilmour vs Waters nonsense and made it public. If the battle rages forever among fans it's his fault.

- The whole reason he started that battle was to deceive people into thinking he was "the genius". He knew his solo albums would not convince anyone so he actually had to attempt to steal credit for everything good pink floyd had ever done.

-He then went on, after accusing Mason and Gilmour of laziness in Rolling fucking Stone, to release 2 more albums in 25 years. Would you sell your story to rolling stone??

-All of his Political lip service. ugh.

- He actually allowed himself to be billed as "the genius behind pink floyd". Who could walk out on stage to the title of "Genius" without feeling like an asshole?

-He amused us to death with his endless Wall tour. I thought he was against amusing us to death. What are these recent tours if not shallow nostalgia acts with really expensive eye candy?

Gilmour has been just about as unprolific in the last 30 years. I don't think he deserved to be Pink Floyd without Waters but he also did not deserve to be shut out of the decision making during TFC. He earned his spot. That's on Waters.

[kjek1]

Come on it's his music and that song is all about the soaring guitar solos. That's why it's so famous

Though I'm sure Flathead and the other two will be along soon to tell us Waters is actually responsible for those solos as he was working Dave's hands with strings in the studio

[Kerry King]

Come on it's his music and that song is all about the soaring guitar solos. That's why it's so famous

I doubt it. The music alone is not enough. It's very good but not that good. Those lyrics reach down deep. They are great lyrics. Some of Pink Floyd's best. But the lyrics alone are not enough just as the music alone is not enough. It's that music with those words, and the quality of Gilmour's voice, which causes such an emotional response.

[kjek1]

I've yet to meet one person who cited their reason for loving Comfortably Numb as being the deep lyrics. It's always been about the virtuoso guitar work.

[bonjanee]

I've yet to meet one person who cited their reason for loving Comfortably Numb as being the deep lyrics. It's always been about the virtuoso guitar work.

Well you just have

... or at least someone who thinks that the deep and meaningful lyrics are a vital part of the mix at least equal to the guitar work. They give the music emotional grounding that sets the foundation for the music. Both the songs authors have admitted that its the perfect example of them working so well together.

Waters' lyrics and song structures act as an emotional anchor that grounds Gilmour's melodic flights. Gilmour provided an emotional release to Waters very grounded, cynical but utterly brilliant songwriting.

As Ron Geesin pointed out in the BBC Pink Floyd doc from 1994 - Waters has (or at least had) great timing, not in the musical sense, but in how to bring structure to a piece, when things should happen, when things should be left out etc. He is a master of dynamics, whereas Gilmour is a master of melody.

He also brought a madness/mania to the mix that was integral the band. He was a driving force that tied the other elements together into a unified vision.

The Albert Hall rehearsal video and the studio sections of live at Pompei are a great insight into how the band seemed to have worked. Waters has a great sense of the bigger picture. The puzzle about what do you do with a straight line. Waters the architect would build the cathedrals, Gilmour, Mason and Wright would paint frescos in the ceilings.

Look at the evolution of Echoes. From Nothing Part 14 (which is brilliant, but goes nowhere) to a soaring piece with multiple dynamics going on. Waters may not have written every bit - but you can be sure that he was instrumental in saying what piece goes where, and as importantly, what would be left out.

Anyway - back on topic. 'Smell the Roses' is a good portent for the album. It's not breaking any new ground sonically (I don't expect any floyd member to do this at this point in their career) but I like the imagery, I like the passion in his voice - the breakdown is decent. If it's job was to keep my interest piqued for the album, then job done. I give it a 6.5/10. Not spectacular, but not as embarrassing as Rattle That Lock

Guess we don't have too much longer to wait until we know what a Roger Waters long player for 21st century sounds like. I'm excited. At this stage I'm only asking for 4-5 songs that can be added to the legacy. It's been the trend on all Floyd related releases since 1987. No stone cold classic albums, a lot of dross, but there are always a few songs from each to keep interest.

[kjek1]

I've yet to meet one person who cited their reason for loving Comfortably Numb as being the deep lyrics. It's always been about the virtuoso guitar work.

Well you just have

... or at least someone who thinks that the deep and meaningful lyrics are a vital part of the mix at least equal to the guitar work. They give the music emotional grounding that sets the foundation for the music. Both the songs authors have admitted that its the perfect example of them working so well together.

Waters' lyrics and song structures act as an emotional anchor that grounds Gilmour's melodic flights. Gilmour provided an emotional release to Waters very grounded, cynical but utterly brilliant songwriting.

As Ron Geesin pointed out in the BBC Pink Floyd doc from 1994 - Waters has (or at least had) great timing, not in the musical sense, but in how to bring structure to a piece, when things should happen, when things should be left out etc. He is a master of dynamics, whereas Gilmour is a master of melody.

He also brought a madness/mania to the mix that was integral the band. He was a driving force that tied the other elements together into a unified vision.

The Albert Hall rehearsal video and the studio sections of live at Pompei are a great insight into how the band seemed to have worked. Waters has a great sense of the bigger picture. The puzzle about what do you do with a straight line. Waters the architect would build the cathedrals, Gilmour, Mason and Wright would paint frescos in the ceilings.

Look at the evolution of Echoes. From Nothing Part 14 (which is brilliant, but goes nowhere) to a soaring piece with multiple dynamics going on. Waters may not have written every bit - but you can be sure that he was instrumental in saying what piece goes where, and as importantly, what would be left out.

Anyway - back on topic. 'Smell the Roses' is a good portent for the album. It's not breaking any new ground sonically (I don't expect any floyd member to do this at this point in their career) but I like the imagery, I like the passion in his voice - the breakdown is decent. If it's job was to keep my interest piqued for the album, then job done. I give it a 6.5/10. Not spectacular, but not as embarrassing as Rattle That Lock

Guess we don't have too much longer to wait until we know what a Roger Waters long player for 21st century sounds like. I'm excited. At this stage I'm only asking for 4-5 songs that can be added to the legacy. It's been the trend on all Floyd related releases since 1987. No stone cold classic albums, a lot of dross, but there are always a few songs from each to keep interest.

I can agree with most of this