Sympathy for Roger Waters?

[zuma]

[mosespa]

1. I believe I said that I feel sorry for children w/o a parent.

2. I also feel bad for those that are mentally and physically abused.

3. I believe a 10 year-old child would be much more damaged by being raped than being raised by a collectivist.

4. My opinions have been formed by my trials and tribulations.

5. I asked my one friend because his dad died at 8 and he is a special ed teacher that has worked with blind kids.

6. I asked others because I find your opinion outrageous and I was wondering if anyone agreed with it.

7. My opinion was not formed at all by anyone I talked to and I really wanted to stay away from my life story (since I am a newbie). I will streamline it, so as not to bore anyone.

8. I was diagnosed with a 18 inch spinal cord tumor. I was in the hospital for 9 months, had 8 surgeries and spent 7 weeks with spinal meningitis. The meningitis infected my optic nerves, which caused my left eye to go totally blind and damage my right eye (to a lesser extent). I have spent numerous hours with blind people when the doctors were trying to save my vision. I also mentioned that my friend's 13 year-old is blind. I have very little sight in my right eye w/o my corrective lenses. I also am paralyzed from the chest down, due to spinal cord damage, which requires dependency on others (like blind people). I believe that these experiences have given me more than an inkling of what a blind person deals with, but not totally. I do know what it is like to have limited vision and be in constant pain.

9. I also know over a dozen people that have grown up w/o a parent. Most of them have done very well in their lives and I honestly hope the same for your two children. Ironically, Roger has had more problems with his dad's loss than any of my friends and obviously Mr. Waters is more successful, at least in fame and money.

10. I regret mentioning my degree, as it really is irrelevant.

11. As far as me not being able to think for myself, that was true for the 7 weeks I had spinal meningitis. However, after that period, I have always thought for myself and sometimes with more experience and wisdom than I wish I had.

1. My children are without a parent...ME. But I've already said that. It's obvious that you only consider the absence of a parent to be important if that parent is dead. I suppose that having a living parent who is unable to have much of any contact with you simply isn't tragic enough in your mind to warrant any sympathy.

Well, if that's your opinion on it...so be it. I'm not here to change your mind...I'm just here to keep you from trying to change mine.

2. But do they have as much of your sympathy as those who lead a normal life...minus only their sight?

3. Depends upon what you consider "damaged." A ten year old child who has been raped at least has access to counseling to help them deal with the rape as best as they can.

A child who has been intellectually crippled by a collectivist parent has nothing to help them deal with it. They have to deal with it on their own...provided that they still have the capacity to think for themselves.

Now, I'm sure that in the moment that they are being raped, the child is suffering a horror that the child being raised by a collectivist may never fully experience...but we're not talking about "in the moment," are we?

No...we're talking about the life-long effects. After all, the question being raised was not "who had the most terrifying moment? Stevie being born blind or Roger being born without a father?"

The question was "Who had the more difficult upbringing? Who's early life was most severly affected by their individual tragedy?"

Roger has based pretty much his entire career upon dealing with his issue.

I don't think Stevie has ever written a song about being blind, has he?

Obviously, Roger has had a more difficult time in dealing with his trauma, the way I see it.

You seem to see it differently, but you fail to provide even circumstantial examples to back up your claim.

This is why I continue to be in your face.

I'll tell you the same thing that I told filthyfish in a different context: Your WORD isn't enough.

I don't care what you think, suppose, assume or guess about the issue. Provide SOME kind of backing for your thinking other than the input of others. Show me the line of thinking that led you to your conclusion...however tenuous it may be.

Search through the music, the interviews, the history of the artist.

That's what I did...that's why I have the opinion that I have.

Do I care if you agree with it?

No...I don't.

I DO care that you keep attacking it in the hopes that I will change it once you've forced me to see the "folly" of my thinking.

Keep your collectivist tactics to yourself, pal. If you're not going to come to this properly, back the f*ck out of it. You're not contributing anything of worth in this discussion, the way I see it.

4. And by what other people have told you to think.

5. Okay...his dad died when he was eight. He got to spend some time with his dad before he died.

Roger didn't.

You friend's experience is void in this discussion because it's not comparable.

6. THAT'S A COLLECTIVIST MOVE!! "I think this person's thinking is incorrect, so I'm going to see what other people think about it and use that against him."

THAT'S FUCKING COLLECTIVISM!!

And they didn't agree with me.

So?

You seem to think that I should change my opinion because others disagree with it. Should I have stopped liking Pink Floyd back in the days when I was the ONLY kid in my school who did?

They ALL told me that Pink Floyd suck and was something that only faggots listened to.

They outnumbered me. Should I have changed my thinking?

Your tactics indicate that you think I should have.

That's COLLECTIVIST THINKING...something that you say you don't do.

And here you are, doing it.

I simply have to ask if your self denial is that strong...or if you're just a hypocrite.

I'm not going to change my way of thinking just because you say that I should because people that YOU have talked to disagree with me.

First of all, I have no evidence other than your word (which means nothing, as I've already said,) that these people even exist.

I've never met them. I haven't heard their take on this.

Even if I had, I seriously doubt that I would go changing my opinion just because others say that I should.

I don't work like that.

Are you beginning to understand this yet? Or will I have to repeat it in my NEXT post, too?

7. Oh, but your opinion was certainly STRENGTHENED by those that you spoke to, wasn't it?

Does that tell you anything about how weak it was to begin with?

By the way...just because your opinion was not formed by the people you talked to doesn't mean that you aren't a collectivist.

One More Time:

The fact that you went running to other people to find out what they think about an issue that they have no stake in is a COLLECTIVIST MOVE!!

You engaged in collectivism the moment you asked someone else "do you agree with this guy?" In that moment, you set up an instance of turning this into "Us against Them," only really it's more like "Us against Him."

Okay...maybe asking other people their opinions off the board isn't such a bad thing...but bringing those other people's opinions back to this board means that you tried to GANG UP on me with your buddies.

Collectivism.

That's you.

8. None of this gives you any excuse to tell me that you have a friend who thinks I'm a "fucking idiot." None of this gives you any excuse to insult my intellect simply because I disagree with you.

None of this gives you any excuse for criticising my parenting.

And none of this gives you any definite insight into the issue at hand because you are still not totally blind since birth, nor have you been absent a parent since birth.

For what it's worth, I think it sucks that all that had to happen to you...but in my view of the world, stuff like that HAS to happen, so it has to happen to SOMEONE.

Seems like you were the one.

Sorry for your luck.

9. Here, you again come at me with your greater numbers.

Here again, those greater numbers completely fail to impress me or change my mind.

You can keep your well wishes for my children...in fact, keep your mind off of them altogether. You have insulted my relationship with them and that's one thing that I will never forgive. You don't know what I've gone through where my children are concerned...or what I continue to go through.

And I'm not about to share it with you because it's none of your business. I'm not going to give you any more ammunition to miss me with in this area.

10. Yeah...I think that was the first thing I said about your degree, isn't it?

11. You're a collectivist...it's not possible for you to think for yourself, IMO.

[zuma]

Look, I know you don't know me, as I kept my posting for the last year restricted to the Shout Box on the much beloved and now defunct Tracker... but as a Mod, you are breaking the rules by being consistently way off topic and with all due respect, either lock this thread, ban me or shut the fuck up!

[oh by the way]

What kind of insight do you have on this subject? Absolutely None from what you have written. I said I felt bad for any child w/o a parent, not just those who have dead parents. I did not seek out anyones opinions.
They were family or friends that I asked when they visited or talked to on the phone.
My wishing your children the best came from compassion for children and your response to that showed what a total ingrate you are.
What makes you think that my partial blindness, dependence on others and time spent at eye clinics and the hospital does not give me more insight than you concerning this discussion?

What have you based your opinions on?

Roger is obviously a much weaker minded person than Stevie. Because he has not written a song about being blind does not in the least mean that he has had less obstacles to overcome.

Once again, what have you based your bizarre opinion on, besides the fact that Mr. Wonder is a better musician than Roger?

[mosespa]

Look, I know you don't know me, as I kept my posting for the last year restricted to the Shout Box on the much beloved and now defunct Tracker... but as a Mod, you are breaking the rules by being consistently way off topic and with all due respect, either lock this thread, ban me or shut the fuck up!

Actually, since we're still debating whether or not Roger Waters is deserving of sympathy because of the loss of his father, we're still on topic.

Don't worry, I'm not far off from either locking this thread or deleting it entirely.

Having said that...

1. What kind of insight do you have on this subject?

2. Absolutely None from what you have written.

3. I said I felt bad for any child w/o a parent, not just those who have dead parents.

4. I did not seek out anyones opinions.

5. They were family or friends that I asked when they visited or talked to on the phone.

6. My wishing your children the best came from compassion for children and your response to that showed what a total ingrate you are.

7. What makes you think that my partial blindness, dependence on others and time spent at eye clinics and the hospital does not give me more insight than you concerning this discussion?

8. What have you based your opinions on?

9. Roger is obviously a much weaker minded person than Stevie.

10. Because he has not written a song about being blind does not in the least mean that he has had less obstacles to overcome.

11. Once again, what have you based your bizarre opinion on, besides the fact that Mr. Wonder is a better musician than Roger?

1. "Insight?"

None. I'm not blind and neither of my parents are dead. I never said that I had insight...I've only been giving my opinion, which is what the whole point of this thread is, I think.

You have taken issue with my opinion and have tried consistently to intimidate me into changing my opinion...as though you believe I have no right to think whatever I wish to think.

2. Never said I did have any. I'm just giving my opinion. You don't have to like it, you don't have to acknowledge it...but you have chosen to acknowledge it because it outrages you.

Being as I was completely unaware of your existence when I stated my opinion, I think it's safe to say that I didn't state it to outrage you. Thus, your outrage is YOUR problem, not mine.

But you keep trying to make it mine. You seem to think it's MY responsibility to make your outrage stop by conforming to your opinion.

I'm not about to do that. And the more you try to make me conform, the more I will resist.

You're just fueling me...you're not moving me to rethink my position one iota.

The sooner you realize this, then perhaps the sooner you will stop trying to coerce me into changing my view...and then this debate can finally die.

3. Actually, you didn't specify...and you seem to think that my children are better off without me; at least, you have said as much, anyway. This leads me to believe that my children who are growing up without me are unworthy of your sympathy due to the fact that I am not dead.

You certainly don't have any for them...at least, this CAN be extrapolated from your comment that they're better off without me.

Again...if you expressed yourself a little more skillfully, it would be very difficult for me to "misread" what you say.

Although, I don't think I have.

4. Um...yes, you did. Remember? You ASKED them for them.

Asking someone for their opinion is SEEKING their opinion.

In this one statement, you attempt to wipe away everything you have said about asking someone else what they thought.

For many pages now, you have told me that you have asked other people what they think about this.

Now, you expect me to believe that you didn't?

And you say that I make no sense?

You've got balls, I'll give you that.

5. And now, here you admit that you DID ask them their opinions. That means that you sought their opinions.

In this sentence, you blatantly contradict the previous one.

Make up your mind, please.

6. Why should I feel gratitude towards someone who has shown themselves time and again to be hostile towards me just because you decide to try to make yourself look like a bigger person by trying to act like you have some compassion?

I kept waiting for you to say that you felt compassion for them because they have me for a father.

Yes, I AM an ingrate where you are concerned. I see no reason to have any positive feeling towards you whatsoever. You started blasting me pretty much right out of the gate.

Why on earth do you feel that I should accept your half-hearted olive branches?

You haven't apologized for insulting me...or my relationship with my children. You continue to sit on some kind of high horse because my opinion doesn't align with yours. You still look down your nose at me.

Not that I care...obviously I don't think you're quite as lofty as you obviously think you are.

I don't want your compassion...I don't want your friendship...I don't want your well-wishes.

I simply want you to stop trying to make me think like you do.

7. Because your blindess is PARTIAL, not TOTAL. There's a difference, you know.

You still have SOME sight.

Sure...you have SOME idea of what it feels like to not have a portion of your sight, just as I have an idea of what it feels like to not have a father.

But my father's still alive...so I really don't have any idea of what it feels like to have a dead father, do I?

And if I were to say that I did, I've no doubt at all that you would swoop down on that comment with more insults to my intellect.

8. Research and my own speculation of what that research indicates.

9. What do you base THIS upon?

10. I'm not saying that Stevie Wonder has had a cakewalk of a life. My original statement was that I believe that Roger has had a more difficult time. Stevie Wonder seems to be a much happier person than Roger Waters.

Perhaps I should have said a long time ago that that's what makes me think what I do.

Perhaps I should have said that the fact that Roger still dwells upon the loss of his father indicates that he's had a more difficult time...if only because he doesn't seem to have let it go.

But I didn't say that. So it doesn't really matter now.

11. Again, I have based my opinion upon my own research...my own observations. Upon the fact that Stevie Wonder seems to smile more than Roger Waters.

[FloydCouncil]

for whats its worth, I DEFINITELY would rather go blind then lose my father.

[oh by the way]

Where exactly have you done this research? When I observe blind people and those that do not have a parent, I am a collectivist.

Where is your research and how much time have you spent with blind people.

[oh by the way]

for whats its worth, I DEFINITELY would rather go blind then lose my father.

I believe that would be true with many people. I also know your life would be more difficult and challenging if you lost your sight, in comparison to losing a father. If you doubt me, put a blindfold on for about a week
and SEE how you do.

[mosespa]

Once again, the point of debate is not whether everyone else who has lost a parent has had a harder time than everyone who has gone blind. The point of debate (as I understand it,) is whether or not Roger Waters has had a more difficult time than Stevie Wonder.

In your collectivist ways, you are trying to make this about EVERY blind person or EVERYONE who has lost a parent.

My research is based upon what I know of the two artists in question.

Stevie's music is generally happier and more upbeat than Waters'...this is MY opinion based upon ME listening to their music.

Stevie seems to smile more than Roger Waters...this is MY opinion based upon the photographs that I have seen of them.

Roger Waters laments his loss more than Stevie does...this is MY opinion based upon MY knowledge of their music.

I have not asked other people which of the two they think has had the more difficult time because THEIR opinion in this matter is of no consequence to me. There is no reason for me to change my opinion because someone else has a differing opinion.

You are a collectivist for asking other people what they think about this issue rather than simply stating your opinion and standing by it on your own.

You drug other people into it who have no business in it. THIS is what marked you as a collectivist.

[Syd'sSexy]

Ding!

Fifteen rounds complete! The boxing match is over!

[mosespa]

LOL

I'll lock this thread now...while we wait for the judges' decision