Earliest signs of trouble...

robertcrosbie · Post by **robertcrosbie** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:54 pm

I'm trying to put together an informal timeline where Syd went from "normal" to "crazy" and I'm wondering what or when could be classed as the very first or earliest sign that Syd was going to have a break down?

I always reckon it to be either one of two events; the first being the time Joe Boyd met him in the UFO club, and mentioned that it felt like their was "nobody home". The second is Gilmour attending the "Emily" sessions and seeing Syd in a strange state.

Now, we can date the "Emily" sessions, but when did the Boyd occasion occur? Presumably Syd was generally in good form around these times as he still had it in him to make "Piper" and do some good TV appearances and gigs. And maybe isolated incidents were less noticeable to the band members and management, until they started manifesting in continuously strange behaviour...

flashback · Post by **flashback** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:19 am

I would say it will be hard to list a first sign because the first few times if not more many people around him at the time would chalk it up to drug use at that time.Looking back they might be able to say"well maybe this was a first sign" but that would just be them guessing.

Tenniru · Post by **Tenniru** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:11 am

Also, assuming he had a light form of Autism, people assuming the lights were out may have assumed there was something wrong when it was just standard Autism; an aversion to communication with odd people, lack of eye contact, looking like one is zoned out when one is actually tuned in, the like. Even the "thousand-mile stare" we saw in the very end of the famous Apples And Oranges lip-sync resembles something I do every once and a while when there's nothing in particular to look at but I'm in a conversation (although I am definitetly listening and maybe even talking or typing; I don't know aobut Syd).
Don't trust some random guy (especially from the 60s) to do a prognosis; believe it or not, from my experience as an Autistic person the best psychiatrist is a madman.

Atom Heart Sun · Post by **Atom Heart Sun** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:46 pm

the best psychiatrist is a madman

In todays society you're probably right, and anyway "madmen" are often known as such because they actually speak the truth!

dgsyd1 · Post by **dgsyd1** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:32 am

The incident Joe Boyd refers to happened on June 2nd 1967, several days after "See Emily Play" was recorded. And that's where David Gilmour says he first noticed a change in Syd. Most people who were part of the Pink Floyd inner circle at the time, seem to regard the Top Of The Pops appearances in mid/late July as the first sign of trouble. And the BBC radio session on July 28th, and the Ally Pally show on July 29th proving that something was very wrong with Syd.

Chris Moise · Post by **Chris Moise** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:08 am

To expand a bit on what David wrote..

late May - See Emily Play session. Gilmour said Syd seemed to not recognize him. On the other hand Peter Jenner, Andrew King and engineer Jeff Jarrett said he was fine.

June 2 - UFO - AFAIK this is the gig Joe Boyd has often referred to as the one where Syd had that "nobody home" look in his eyes when he saw him walking to the stage.

June 27 - the last Piper recording session (not counting mixing). Everyone has said that Syd was "very much on the case" during the Piper sessions.

July 28 - BBC Playhouse Theater - Saturday Club Radio session. Syd fan Jon Allen tracked BBC producer Bill Beeb and interviewed him for his Late Night fanzine. IIRC he said that there was a row about the recording equipment and Syd walked out of the session. I'll have to dig the interview out.

July 28 - UFO - I wonder if this might be the show Joe Boyd referred to and not the June show?

July 29 - Alexander Palace show. Syd described as catatonic. Rick Wright has said that Syd was a "completely different person" after this weekend.

Aug 7/8 - Scream thy Last Scream and Set the Controls recorded.

mid Aug - "Pink Floyd Flake out" melody Maker article. The band cancels a German tour and Syd is given a 2 week vacation to Foremtera.

Mason writes in his book that Syd still had "good, focused" periods after the mid '67 breakdown but the bad days were more and more frequent and the good days further and further apart..

BTW, if anyone is interested in Syd recording session info, timelines, and exclusive interviews with people that were there do check out David Parker's Random Precision book. It's essential for Syd fans..

robertcrosbie · Post by **robertcrosbie** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:13 pm

Interesting. Thanks for the breakdown of the dates. BTW, you know the photos of the Floyd in Maida Vale studios in Nick's book, what sessions were they for? Syd looks reasonably together in these pics. This is the thing that gets me, and the one issue I can't resolve in my head. Syd was said to be "catatonic" / "mad" / "psychotic" / "unstable" etc around this time. But when I see photos from this era, often he doesn't look that way.

Take the US tour shots. Here Syd is shown sitting with the group, having tea on a hotel balcony. He looks pretty cool. There's another shot of him with two sugar lumps in his mouth, and another with an arm raised and the group laughing. It looks like they were all getting along fine. But this is the tour were Syd was "totally out of it" by most reports.

So either he was fine during the day and only switched off as a reaction to not wanting to play in the evening, or his condition wasn't that bad. I know that's an unworkable theory due to all the evidence, but it strikes me that Syd made some kind of conscious effort to sabotage the group's live performances and TV appearances, for the simple reason that he didn't want to do it anymore. This whole "sellout" issue has been repeated since, e.g. Kurt Cobain. Although Syd didn't kill himself, he had many of the same purist ideals as Cobain, almost the same proto-punk / artistic vision.

The other thing is, did no one ever say "what's wrong with you?? Why are you doing this??" "Pull yourself together man!!"

blueeyes · Post by **blueeyes** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:14 pm

robertcrosbie wrote:So either he was fine during the day and only switched off as a reaction to not wanting to play in the evening, or his condition wasn't that bad. I know that's an unworkable theory due to all the evidence, but it strikes me that Syd made some kind of conscious effort to sabotage the group's live performances and TV appearances, for the simple reason that he didn't want to do it anymore. This whole "sellout" issue has been repeated since, e.g. Kurt Cobain. Although Syd didn't kill himself, he had many of the same purist ideals as Cobain, almost the same proto-punk / artistic vision.

And I've often wondered too, how much of his condition was exaggerated by the others to 'justify' throwing him out.

scotsport · Post by **scotsport** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:24 pm

When was the Tomorrows World footage (where the band play a haunting instrumental with some lovely Syd guitar) recorded? Wasn't that very late '67? Also, there was a BBC session recorded in December '67 where Syd sounded OK.

About time I contributed something; I've been lurking on this forum for a lang time.

blueeyes · Post by **blueeyes** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:43 pm

scotsport wrote:When was the Tomorrows World footage (where the band play a haunting instrumental with some lovely Syd guitar) recorded? Wasn't that very late '67? Also, there was a BBC session recorded in December '67 where Syd sounded OK.

About time I contributed something; I've been lurking on this forum for a lang time.

I lurked for what seemed like forever. I'm only vocal in spurts though.

Atom Heart Sun · Post by **Atom Heart Sun** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:53 pm

Chris Moise wrote: late May - See Emily Play session. Gilmour said Syd seemed to not recognize him. On the other hand Peter Jenner, Andrew King and engineer Jeff Jarrett said he was fine.

Was Syd to some extent not playing games as a defensive mechanism against the threat of the unknown and/or losing his position as leader?

Frankymole · Post by **Frankymole** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:42 am

Re: that American tour, Syd performed perfectly on all the talk show takes, even miming the song performances as required... UNTIL THEY WENT FOR THE TAKE. When they were shooting/recording for real, he deliberately refused to participate. It was just like "Have You Got it Yet.." - he was playing with them.

Not the friendliest thing to do, but what friendship was the gruelling touring giving him?

robertcrosbie · Post by **robertcrosbie** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:03 pm

So that performance of Apples & Oranges is just the rehearsal? Then why the audience applause and short interview?

Its mentioned in the Mojo tribute, that it was widely reported he didn't bother miming but the visual evidence shows that wasn't right. Haven't seen the Pat Boone so that could be the one. The Bandstand appearance seems alright (if not at all enthusiastic - Nick is actually the worst offender!)

dgsyd1 · Post by **dgsyd1** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:57 am

There is a couple of points in that particular performance of "Apples & Oranges" where Syd should be miming but isn't, particularly towards the end of the song. You'll notice that quite early on in the performance the camera is taken off Syd, and doesn't really come back to him very much. However, most of the stories about Syd's behaviour during TV performances on the US tour come from the appearance on The Pat Boone Show, and footage of that has yet to surface.

I think that, along with the performances of "See Emily Play" on Top Of The Pops, are the holy grail of Syd Barrett visual performances. With possibly the Bill Graham footage of their gig at the Filmore West, which we might actually get to see at some point.

And while we're on the subject, i'd be interested to see the footage of Pink Floyd at Christmas On Earth Revisited, from December 21 1967 (the bands last gig before David Gilmour joined), if only to see if Syd was as wasted at this this show as everyone remembers him to be.