My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

[dj865]

In a word...drums...or lack thereof!

I play drums, I love drums, I like to hear drum grooves. That doesn't mean I don't like music with no drums, I do, it's just I prefer my Pink Floyd with drum grooves!

I've done a quick listen/analysis with the album and there is approx.. 17 minutes of drum groove (by drum groove I mean continuous beats, on a drum kit). 10 minutes of this occurs over 2 songs (Not now John and Two Suns in the sunset). The other 7 minutes is peppered throughout the rest of the album (usually in bursts of 30 seconds, up to 2 minutes). In fact, there is only just over 3 minutes of drum groove on Side A!

The album is 46 minutes in length. And with only 17 minutes of drumming, its no coincidence this is a tough listen for most people.

Obviously groove/feel/time is held nicely throughout all the sections with no drums...but jeez, doesn't it make it a boring listen?!

[Jimi Dean Barrett]

That's a good argument. Actually I never noticed the sparseness of the drums. Just the parts were the drums played.
Well I'd be curious of a Dance remix of the album!

[space triangle]

I agree. The lack of drums is exactly what gives this album a very depressing feeling. Pink Floyd is known for the phrase ‘less is more’, but the lack of drums on this album is beyond all bounds even for Pink Floyd.

[Kerry King]

The Final Cut EP is an enjoyable listen!

[raisemyrent]

How insightful (no sarcasm). 0% Rick. 37% drums of which some of it isn’t Nick (two suns in the sunset is... Jeff porcaro?). Most songs are sung by Roger (a departure except for the wall), and are angry and depressing. Yeah, sounds like a drag to me. That’s why as soon as it’s losing you, there’s some sort of sound effect or explosion in surround or q sound or whatever. Or roger screams

[mosespa]

I find it an enjoyable listen. *shrug*

But...I can see where a lot of people would feel the way you describe.

[ZiggyZipgun]

What percentage of The Final Cut has bass guitar on it? I've said it before, but Roger would probably be much happier working within the folk genre. Even now, he could put out an album of just his rough voice and his acoustic guitar - no sound effects, no fancy production - and it could be an instant classic. I don't think he has a good sense of what people enjoy listening to because he doesn't listen to a lot of music and he doesn't respect or socialize with too many musical artists. He has some idea of what people expect from a Pink Floyd record and tries to check all of those boxes. He knows a lot of fans think of him as a bass player, so he keeps wearing one in public.

[The Gunner's Dream]

Well, I disagree. I find the album to be a very enjoyable listen. It's best when not compared against Floyd's more commercial works, as that obviously isn't what Waters was going for. On the subject of the drums, the one thing I'd comment on is while there is a lack of drums, when there are drums they sound HUGE. In particular the snare and toms on tracks like The Fletcher Memorial Home and The Final Cut have a big impact. The production on that album is probably the highest fidelity of any Floyd record before or since. It makes for a very unique listening experience.

[ZiggyZipgun]

Well, I disagree. I find the album to be a very enjoyable listen. It's best when not compared against Floyd's more commercial works, as that obviously isn't what Waters was going for. On the subject of the drums, the one thing I'd comment on is while there is a lack of drums, when there are drums they sound HUGE. In particular the snare and toms on tracks like The Fletcher Memorial Home and The Final Cut have a big impact. The production on that album is probably the highest fidelity of any Floyd record before or since. It makes for a very unique listening experience.

What would you do differently now?
"I think I would probably work the songs up with a band so there would be more flow. I would veer away from the over-dramatic use of the drum kit. Some of it I find difficult to listen to. A specific example is “Your Possible Pasts”, which is this quite melodic thing and then the drums come in really loud, and I find that slightly irritating now. I’d probably put in some kind of rhythm section that carries you through the song more smoothly. [The sudden outbursts], they’d be toned down. I’d bring the verses up and take the choruses down to the point where you could listen to the song from beginning to end without leaping out of the chair." - Roger, 2004

[The Gunner's Dream]

Gilmour and Waters have both contradicted themselves many times over a number of years. Regardless of Waters changing his mind about things 20 years later, the decision he made at the time of recording is what's on the record. I'm not sure what good it does to speculate on what could have been. I'd rather appreciate it for what it is.

[space triangle]

If one listened to what Gilmour and Waters have to say today about the 'Atom Heart Mother' album, for example, no one would ever think of listening to that album again.Floyd guys are known to be very critical of his opus. Just the other day I was listening to Gilmour’s critique of the Dark Side Of The Moon album. According to him, the music and lyrics are not well balanced on the album at all. The lyric is, as he says, too dominant. However, in the end he added that it was not very pleasant to criticize the best-selling album of all time.

[ZiggyZipgun]

Gilmour and Waters have both contradicted themselves many times over a number of years. Regardless of Waters changing his mind about things 20 years later, the decision he made at the time of recording is what's on the record.

I've found Gilmour's interviews to be very consistent over the years; even regarding The Wall, his opinion of it changed after the film was released, but from then on he's always been critical of the whole project for the same reasons. Meanwhile, Roger can't name most of the songs on their pre-Dark Side albums, and his opinion of albums, songs, and people seems to flip-flop every ten years or so.

[scarecrow]

Yeah, also I think the lack of drums/ rhythmic stuff most likely comes from Roger getting on a more singer-songwriter roll from maybe 1977 (making demo for The Wall + Pros and Cons). I reckon increased enthusiasm and confidence in writing can easily lead to a thing where there's less room for outside input and developing the material.

Personally I do try and put the brakes on developing song ideas if I'm within a band situation myself... try to bring it to the band in it's most skeletal form.

Gilmour has said he made various attempts to bring in other influences (during the 60s/ 70s), more syncopated playing, bits of funk etc. Although I'm not sure those are my favourite bits of Pink Floyd.

Except for maybe some Jeffrey Lewis stuff, Bob Dylan and a few other things, I'm with Gilmour that very specific, overbearing lyrical narratives often dampen the impact, detract from the music/lyric balance. Yes, interesting that Gilmour sees the music/ lyric balance on DSOTM as flawed... I don't think I agree with that, although the best post-Syd Floyd stuff generally I find evocative and like that, but I wouldn't say I find any of it amazingly profound (nor is that a requirement).

I go with the consensus that Waters' songwriting/ composition started going downhill in various ways after The Wall (although he seemed to continue enjoying it at least for a while, so I support that). I can't really be bothered with something like The Trial, where it's basically just functional within the concept album/ pop opera, but stuff like ABITW2 or Comfortably Numb is specific to a degree (school, illness, alienation) but also enigmatic, expansive, weird pop.

Also, things like Mother, Hey You, Show Must Go On, Pigs on the Wing are great for Waters' take on The Band, CSN etc (I think part of the reason his increasing Americanised vocal style, right?)... I see it as a case of diminishing returns, rewriting the same song etc.

[space triangle]

Gilmour added as well 'Wish You Were Here' album is a Pink Floyd album with a perfect balance between music and lyrics. And that's why it's his favourite Pink Floyd album.

[mosespa]

For whatever validity there is to the notion of "oh, no, here we go...it's about his father and the war again," (to paraphrase Richard Wright,) I think that most of the complaint that Gilmour and Wright have about Waters' method of working is that it's always a concept album. From Dark Side through Final Cut, there was always a unifying concept which seemed more important than the music; or for which music could be sacrificed if it couldn't be made to serve the concept, with lyrics being paramount. Prior to Dark Side, any album was just a collection of songs that they'd all worked on. There was no overarching concept that had to be supported, so there was more "room" for musical contributions from anyone and everyone.

It's nothing I can find anything on in the public record (even on the internet,) but there was something I saw or read somewhere which had Gilmour's reaction to Water's insistence on making WYWH thematically cohesive as "another fucking concept album."

AMLOR was the first Pink Floyd album since OBC that wasn't a concept album...and then with TDB, we're back at a concept album, though not a full-on narrative.

I think it's interesting, though, that when it came time for Gilmour and Wright to do solo albums, Wright at least gave his album a title which suggested a nautical theme that the instrumental song titles seem to suggest (I won't comment on the lyrics as I've heard nothing from this album,) while Gilmour released a disparate series of songs.

It's also bitterly ironic that Wright said at the time of Wet Dream's release that doing that album had "helped me get back my creative energies for the next Floyd thing."