The Wall and The Final Cut

seamusz · Post by **seamusz** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:09 pm

I thought that we could have a topic disscussing the similiarities/differences between the albums, The Wall and The Final Cut.

I have noticed some songs on TW that could easily have been on TFC, such as Bring The Boys Back Home and Vera, but not a lot of songs on TFC would fit very well on TW IMO.

David Smith · Post by **David Smith** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:39 pm

I think although there were a few differances in style (the wall was IMO more commercial and musically bold) it can't be argued that TW and TFC have a number of similarities, mostly just in the sparse style of song that no longer relies on keyboard and synth and more just on bass, acoustic and the occasional piano piece.

Botha lbums are a step away from the days that moons had dark sides, mothers had atom hearts and diamonds were crazy, now it was more just music stripped bare with a few sound bites to amuse the ear and provide depth to the concept

In short i think they were both the same style, though the final cut was definitly less musically polished

ganaffe · Post by **ganaffe** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:08 am

Viewing both albums in their totality I like TFC better, but that's hardly difference. more an opinion.

I think, TFC is musically a more coherent album than the Wall. I've always found the Wall a bit fragmented. Some of the songs just don't fit each other that well IMO. TFC is more one piece of music like DSOTM for example.

The songs you mentioned are a good example of this (I'm only talking about the music here): BTBBH and Vera are way to "operaesque" for TFC. Where stuff like "your possible pasts" would easily fit in on the Wall, BTBBH would be odd on TFC.

I think the acoustic songs are more interchangeable, stuff like goodbye blue sky or goodbye cruel world, one of the few...

Like I said: I perceive TFC more as one coherent, cynical, bitter piece of music than the Wall, which is to me too much fragmented.

Don't know why this is, probably because Roger could do everything more in his way when producing TFC.

Fox-Mike · Post by **Fox-Mike** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:22 am

I think it's cool that during the wall movie, during the bathroom scene, he quotes a few lines from a song from The Final Cut... That's all I have to say

Meddler · Post by **Meddler** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:53 am

Rick was mad because he said the final cut was mainly scraped Wall songs... and wanted something different, Roger said no, and Rick said bye. Or something along those lines. They are both Rogers babies though, and I like me some babies

!

Post by **drafsack** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:26 am

Rick was mad because he said the final cut was mainly scraped Wall songs... and wanted something different, Roger said no, and Rick said bye. Or something along those lines

I think its prity much safe to say that Rick was gone well before TFC, also the simularities between the two maybe because:

1. TFC was originally going to be the soundtrack from the Wall film and the album that was released is an extention of that.

2. Some of the songs penned for the Wall ended up on TFC - to which David apparently said "if they were not good enough for the Wall why are they good enough for TFC".

3. At the time it was Rogers way of writing ie. The lyrics are more important than the music - also listen to the pro's and con's it is a very simular style, and this was a contrast to the previous Floyd albums where the music could be considered more important than the lyrics.

Powderfinger · Post by **Powderfinger** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:39 am

ganaffe wrote:TFC is more one piece of music like DSOTM for example.

How can you say that DSOTM is one piece of music. The styles in each song are so different. If you say that the great gig in the sky is the same kind of music as Time or Money, then you have to admit that the Wall is much more the same music, IMO.

I consider TW to be much better then TFC, because the music parts are much better. TFC is hardly any music and very much lyrics, which is OK, but TW is lyrically as good as TFC, but musically a lot better.

ganaffe · Post by **ganaffe** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:16 pm

Syd. wrote:How can you say that DSOTM is one piece of music. The styles in each song are so different. If you say that the great gig in the sky is the same kind of music as Time or Money, then you have to admit that the Wall is much more the same music, IMO.

I'm not saying the songs on DSOTM are all the same, but the album is a coherent whole, just like WYWH, and imo TFC. With The Wall that's different to me. The album is too diverse for me to see it as one piece of music. As I said: I think The Wall is too fragmentary for me.

But that's just my opinion. I just don't like the Wall that much.

quicksilver · Post by **quicksilver** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:06 pm

They're both very different in my mind. TW is probably the best engineered record of all time. Everything is thought through and detailed. The words and the music are top notch. From start to finish it holds your attention and invites you into the story. Yes, it had it's "hits" such as CN, HY, ABITWP2, but to me it is still best listened to from start to finish.

TFC to me is a fantastic record in it's own rite soley on the lyrical content. Although Dave played some great guitar at times it clearly lacks his musical input which is why it didn't sell (compared to previous albums). It appealed to hard care fans only and it layed the blueprint for Rogers future solo albums.

Jack Dempsey · Post by **Jack Dempsey** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:11 pm

ganaffe wrote:
Syd. wrote:How can you say that DSOTM is one piece of music. The styles in each song are so different. If you say that the great gig in the sky is the same kind of music as Time or Money, then you have to admit that the Wall is much more the same music, IMO.
I'm not saying the songs on DSOTM are all the same, but the album is a coherent whole, just like WYWH, and imo TFC. With The Wall that's different to me. The album is too diverse for me to see it as one piece of music. As I said: I think The Wall is too fragmentary for me.

But that's just my opinion. I just don't like the Wall that much.

Don't know how you don't like The Wall. In my opinion it's one of the best albums ever written. But everyone's entitled to their opinion. That's what the forums are all about.

Flame-Sky Diver · Post by **Flame-Sky Diver** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:20 pm

The Final Cut may have begun as a collection of Wall outtakes, but Roger made it different and interesting enough to become one of my favourite albums. I like it actually more than The Wall studio.

Homeless Gerald · Post by **Homeless Gerald** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:04 am

As i understood it, Roger waters had threatend to rewrite the wall unless Rick Write agreed to leave the band after the wall was made.
If this is true,surely we could assume that most of TFC would be in the same vein as the wall due to Roger rushing away to start such a product should he need one.

I cannot remember the source of the info but it has always made sence to me because of the similarity between the two albums.

Vlad The Impaler · Post by **Vlad The Impaler** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:37 pm

Homeless Gerald wrote:As i understood it, Roger waters had threatend to rewrite the wall unless Rick Write agreed to leave the band after the wall was made.
If this is true,surely we could assume that most of TFC would be in the same vein as the wall due to Roger rushing away to start such a product should he need one.

I cannot remember the source of the info but it has always made sence to me because of the similarity between the two albums.

The threat was not a re-write but rather the threat was to withhold it altogether to be used supposedly as a solo project. The basic "Wall" got re-written to an extent by Bob Ezrin anyway because to him it was not coherent enough in it's original form....plus he helped devise and write the "Trial" ending.

nosaj · Post by **nosaj** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:19 pm

It seems TFC was made up of Wall scraps. If compact disc was the medium, who knows, the Wall would probably have had some of those TFC songs on it along with other songs that didn't make it on either one. For a while, I did group the Wall, TFC and Pros and Cons (some of these songs could have been on the Wall) as a kind of trilogy. In fact, mixing songs from these three albums is a lot of fun.

ganaffe · Post by **ganaffe** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:55 am

Jack Dempsey wrote:Don't know how you don't like The Wall. In my opinion it's one of the best albums ever written. But everyone's entitled to their opinion. That's what the forums are all about.

Hard to explain. Basically it comes down to two things I guess... but first of all, don't get me wrong, I don't like the latest Britney Spears album better than the Wall. But when I relate the Wall to other PF stuff, it doesn't stand out for me like DSOTM or Animals.
Before I start: In what I'm about to say, I'm primarily talking about the music. I admire Rogers lyrical capacities, but when I listen to Floyd, I listen to the music, the lyrics come in second place.

1. In my opinion the Wall was just to much, it's overdone. Don't get me wrong, there are some really good songs on it which I like, the production is amazing etc. etc. But there are also a lot of songs on the album which are superfluous, maybe not for Roger to make his point clear and his story complete, but for me as a listener they are. Just a few examples: young lust, don't leave me now, abitw3, vera, bring the boys back home, the show must go on, waiting for the worms. These are all songs which are, viewed from MY Floyd-standard, just mediocre pop/rock, to much 'operaesque' or just snippets of musical ideas that don't fit in well with the musical concept of the album.
I agree with quicksilver the Wall (as any other Floyd album) should be listened in it's entirety to get the point. The songs that I don't like on the Wall make it hard for me to 'sit through' the whole album, so I hardly ever even listen to songs I like on the album.

2. The albums preceding the Wall, were made by a group of musicians, who created music together and agreed on what the songs and the albums had to be like. This is something you can hear. Animals, WYWH, DSOTM, Meddle etc. are all albums on which you can hear there is artistic agreement between the members of the band. Musically speaking, this creates a coherent artistic concept, which is very hard to achieve. When four musicians (or creative minds) like them are together in one band it is bound to go wrong. To reach such an artistic coherency by agreement is very difficult, and I think it is a miracle they could achieve that agreement again and again for such a long period. But when a group succeeds in this, it leads to marvelous music. All Floyd albums preceding the wall are proof of that.

TFC was, like a lot of you said before me, basically a solo-project by Roger. Even David said it himself: 'I'm out of here, if you need a guitarplayer you can call me'... or something similar to that. So Roger had artistic control. He had no agreement to make, so there's another coherent artistic concept. Again, you can hear this. Every song on TFC fits to the musical concept of the album.

The Wall is not such an album. It's not a soloproject done by Roger, the contribution of the other Floyd members is still to big for that. But it's neither an album made on the basis of an artistic agreement between all the bandmembers, Rogers voice was getting to strong to achieve such an agreement. And again: you can hear this: the album is not as consistent as pre-Wall albums, it's neither as consistent as TFC or Rogers solo albums like the Pro's & Cons.