The Wall and The Final Cut

[Parpa]

Some great points Ganaffe!
Well said.
And I do agree, The Wall is very cumbersome and requires (at times) too much of an investment to listen to very often. For me it was The Wall film that ultimately killed the album for me. I just could not see the two as existing apart from one another and the film was just too much (of everything). It just doesn't represent (for me) what I love about Pink Floyd. Yes...The Wall was the end for Pink Floyd as Roger became TOO inflated (like a giant puppet I tel you)...and The Final Cut (as good as it is) was indeed Roger's first dry run at a true solo record - - and I'm sure David resented it!

[RogerWatersGirl]

I have heard a lot of differences..>And , you know what is strange? On the wall commentary, while Pink is in the bathroom stall talking to himself, Roger says that Pink is actually singing from The Final Cut...Which, he is, if you listen. Its awesome that it was in the wall.
Also, I can hear the same violin part as in the Comfortably Numb chorus on a lot of the final cut...Lets see, what else.. Oh yea, I the song "The Final Cut" had a line in it, saying, "I'll tell you whats behind the wall..."
but, on the song it is just an explosion, but, on the CD lyric sheet it says that line...I think it would be far more effective if it had that line...Its a great line and it explains the album...

[ganaffe]

I have heard a lot of differences..>And , you know what is strange? On the wall commentary, while Pink is in the bathroom stall talking to himself, Roger says that Pink is actually singing from The Final Cut...Which, he is, if you listen. Its awesome that it was in the wall.

yeah, I noticed that too, it's really cool. But this I don't understand:

Oh yea, I the song "The Final Cut" had a line in it, saying, "I'll tell you whats behind the wall..."
but, on the song it is just an explosion, but, on the CD lyric sheet it says that line...I think it would be far more effective if it had that line...Its a great line and it explains the album...

I just checked my recordsleeve. But in the lyrics for Final Cut, after the line "I'll tell you whats behind the wall", there's just a nice blank line and then the line "there's a kid who had a big hallucination" which is clearly audible on the record... maybe the line is just printed in the CD booklet, I don't know. But I sure would like to know what it is

[mosespa]

(mosespa enters the thread hoping that no one notices this is not the "??????BEATLES??????" thread...)

1. In my opinion the Wall was just to much, it's overdone. Don't get me wrong, there are some really good songs on it which I like, the production is amazing etc. etc. But there are also a lot of songs on the album which are superfluous, maybe not for Roger to make his point clear and his story complete, but for me as a listener they are. Just a few examples: young lust, don't leave me now, abitw3, vera, bring the boys back home, the show must go on, waiting for the worms. These are all songs which are, viewed from MY Floyd-standard, just mediocre pop/rock, to much 'operaesque' or just snippets of musical ideas that don't fit in well with the musical concept of the album.

Perhaps they don't see, to fit musically...but the lyrics AND the music are very central to the story of the album. Without "Young Lust" (the music of which I understand to be a Gilmour contribution, by the way,) we would not be able to see the continuation of Pink's sexual neurosis which will ultimately blow up in his face, rendering a "normal" relationship with a woman nearly impossible. Musically (the way in which you find it hard to sit through) what better way to present a song of sexual neurosis than to put it in a "standard heavy metal format?" When presenting a song about sex, why not put it in the form of the most sexually immature of all music styles?

The musical form is conceptual itself, you see.

Don't Leave Me Now shows not only Pink's dependency upon his wife, but also shows how Pink has a truly distorted view of what a relationship is about to begin with. The music of this song is confused, tortured, rather self-important (as is Pink at this juncture.)

Without Brick 3, the wall really couldn't be complete. There would be a gap between DLMN and GCW. We have to see Pink complete the wall. That's what this song is for. The music of this song is comparatively brash and insistent...THIS WALL IS GOING TO BE COMPLETED COME HELL OR HIGH WATER, it seems to scream.

Vera and BTBBH are necessary conceptual components for their relationships to the war in which Pink's father died and show things such as an innocent longing for happier days (which is a nice contrast to all of the cynical debauchery which follows,) and even the (some would say "odious") comparison's between war and stadium shows...which is a central theme of the album as a whole. Their operatic nature is, to me, also a harkening back to the stylings of WWII music. Guitar work is sparse and the song is carried by strings, woodwinds and brass.

The Show Must Go On is conceptually meant to impart Pink's performance anxiety which is now enhanced by the stimulant the doctor has given him. The music, with it's numerous backing harmonies, is representative of the stereotypical "pop star" who has to have many back up voices to support their own. The deceptive simplicity of the song ties it directly to Mother (who is intoned in the lyrics,) as well as much other "pop" music. Remember, Pink is a pop star...he is represented as such throughout the story.

Waiting For The Worms is (in both music and lyric) a schizophrenic song...representing Pink's breakdown which is hastened by the stimulant beginning to wear off. (If you've ever done speed, you would understand that it doesn't wear off all at once...you get little bursts of speed, followed by a feeling of being drug out, followed by a little burst of speed...etc. etc. etc.)

I hope you don't consider this an attack, ganaffe. Your opinions are your opinions and you are welcome to them, however, it seemed to me that you were missing out on how the music actually contributes to the conceptual integrity of the album. To do the named songs in any other fashion would create a weakness in that structural integrity and the whole thing would fall apart.

It would also mean forging the "Pink Floyd Sound" for no reason other than the sake of creating a recognizeable sound in order to sell more records.

I would also like to suggest the notion that perhaps the fragmented state of the music is meant to represent the fragmented nature of Pink's character...or one could also chalk it up to:

ITF through Mother indicates Pink's early life

GBS through GCW represents Pink's adolescence and early adulthood

Hey You through Comfortably Numb represents Pink's "present," isolated behind his wall and beginning to flash backward to the sixties and the forties before being brought back to the present by the doctor.

TSMGO through OTW represents Pink's hallucination which culminates in his breakdown, self-trial and ultimate realization of how he can heal himself.

Each section represents different periods in the life of Pink and as such ought to sound different from the other periods.

I think it's admirable of Floyd that in the space of one album, they covered more stylistic ground than a lot of bands do in a career.

Just my own opinion, though.

[ganaffe]

(ganaffe reenters the thread and wonders what mosespa is doing here since this is not the "??????BEATLES??????" thread...)

I see what you mean by saying "the musical form is conceptual itself", but that doesn't make it any easier for me to sit through the whole album...

But there are also a lot of songs on the album which are superfluous, maybe not for Roger to make his point clear and his story complete, but for me as a listener they are.

Besides that I think the same (the music being part of the concept) goes for other Floyd albums as well, and with much better results imo.

Talking about the "listening-experience", to me the music means more than the words. It's for this reason that I don't like a lot of conceptual prog-rock music. In my opinion too much music in this genre is subordinated to the words because it has to fit the concept. In the most absurd case, this can lead to composing ugly music because it fits the concept that way. When it's done good it can be amazing and brilliant, but it will still be ugly music. And I will not listen to it because I don't like to listen to music that sounds ugly to me.

[mosespa]

To me, it depends on the mood I'm in, I suppose.

I have a hard time listening to Yes, for example, after the first song on Tales From Topographic Oceans...not so much because I find the music unappealing, but because it just strikes me as being pretension for pretension's sake.

I like TOOL because their music can be so angry and then (within the same song) become deceptively calming and soothing.

Music is, to me, about moods and emotions...not all of which are "pretty."

The Wall (just for example) is a pretty ugly concept and to outfit it with pretty music would be fake. It would be worse than pretensious, it would be a lie to me.

Not everyone is alike (thank the deity,) and different people listen to music for different reasons. None are right and none are wrong.

Sometimes I admire those who would not conciously put something "ugly" into their minds. These people are able to retain a more positive outlook than people like me who sometimes seem on a crusade to seek out the worst in audio/visual to put into their minds.

We become cynical and lose our positivity faster.

In the end, though...two sides of the same coin.

(Now...back to the "?????BEATLES?????" thread )

[Flame-Sky Diver]

I still think The Wall could be easily cut down to some 70-75 minutes and put out all the filler. The words are good, but some of the music isn't. I just lack the music-writing style of David and Richard. Some songs have really non-Floydish arranangements, but they still sound bad - opposite to the orchestrated stuff on The Final Cut, which sounds good. The Final Cut is musically much more consistent than The Wall. I mean, if I listened to the Floyd in the 70s and had albums like Animals, Dark Side, WYWH, Meddle and then there was The Wall, I'd say they'd gone crazy. Sure there are some great tunes, but if you had to choose the worst song from albums from 1973 to 1979, I'm sure most of you would choose some stuff from The Wall. This is it. I lack the musical consistence on The Wall.

I often compare The Wall to Genesis' The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway in the context of the musical qualities of those bands' previous albums - while The Wall seems to me like a step back, The Lamb is the peak of the creative power of the band. And is excellent musically. The only thing that I consider weak on The Lamb are those instrumentals on the second LP.