My theory on why the Final Cut is not an enjoyable listen

[mosespa]

According to the official music video 'Childhood's End' could have a lot to do with The Vietnam War and protest against it.

Who directed the video?

Because often, video directors have nothing to do with the composition of the music and vice versa.

[mosespa]

Why are we even discussing this? Here are the freakin' lyrics:

"You shout in your sleep
Perhaps the price is just too steep
Is your conscious at rest
If once put to the test
You awake with a start
To just the beating of your heart
Just one man beneath the sky
Just two ears just two eyes

You set sail across the sea
Of long past thoughts and memories
Childhood's end your fantasies
Merge with harsh realities
And then as the sail is hoist
You find your eyes are growing moist
And all the fears never voiced
Say you have to make the final choice

Who are you and who am I
To say we know the reason why
Some are born some men die
Beneath one infinite sky
There'll be war there'll be peace
But everything one day will cease
All the iron turn to rust
All the proud men turn to dust
So all things time will mend
And so this song will end"

Looks to me like it has more in common with Roger's lyrics for "Time" than it does with war (mentioned by name exactly the same number of times as "time" is, as it happens,) or with Clarke's book.

But, hey...that's just me. I read what's there, not what I wish were there. *shrug*

[Kerry King]

Roger tried to encourage both David and Rick to write more lyrics for the songs.

Once? He wasn't encouraging from DSOTM on.

Waters: ''People make a mistake if they think I enjoy sitting at home brainstorming around the lyrics. I would have preferred to have been on the sailing as the rest of the band, or playing the golf with them.

I don't believe him.

Roger's own contributions were the laziest.(Ummagumma)

Wright and Mason sound rather lazy as well, and Gilmour sounds like an amateur.

The point was that Waters isn't referring to AHM when he talks about being bored with what they were playing

Because it was new at the time. He got bored with it pretty quick.

Roger wrote the lyrics to "Stay"

Some of those lyrics sound like Rick Wright lyrics (maybe because of similarities to Summer '68). I figured Waters helped him on this one. Is there an interview or something where one of them mentions it?

[ZiggyZipgun]

Roger wrote the lyrics to "Stay"

Some of those lyrics sound like Rick Wright lyrics (maybe because of similarities to Summer '68). I figured Waters helped him on this one. Is there an interview or something where one of them mentions it?

Not that I've come across, but according to Andy Mabbett's Pink Floyd: The Music & The Mystery, the lyrics are credited to Waters and the music is credited to Wright, just like "Burning Bridges" and "Us and Them".

[ZiggyZipgun]

Not that I've come across, but according to Andy Mabbett's Pink Floyd: The Music & The Mystery, the lyrics are credited to Waters and the music is credited to Wright, just like "Burning Bridges" and "Us and Them".

HOWEVER...according to the U.S. Copyright Database, "Stay" is credited as "Words and music by Roger Waters and Rick Wright."

AND...there are other songs listed on there that we've never heard! For example, one by Roger called "Revelation", copyrighted 2001.

[ZiggyZipgun]

HOWEVER...according to the U.S. Copyright Database, "Stay" is credited as "Words and music by Roger Waters and Rick Wright."

Actually, everything from Obscured By Clouds and earlier was credited that way. Later filings were much more specific; "Dogs" is credited to "Roger Waters, words and music, David Gilmour, music"; "What Do You Want From Me?" is "David Gilmour, words and music, Polly Samson, words, Rick Wright, music."

AND...there are other songs listed on there that we've never heard! For example, one by Roger called "Revelation", copyrighted 2001.

This appears to be, of all things, an Eminem song that quoted or sampled something Roger wrote, but I'm not interested enough to look it up.

I'm much more interested in a song called "Tonight I'll Help You Say Goodbye Again", recorded by country star Mickey Gilley for his album, The Songs We Made Love To, released in 1978 or 1979. This particular song is credited to "Roger Waters, words and music."

There's also a song from 1996 called "Without Blame", which is a duet between Ismaël Lô - a Senegalese singer known as "the Bob Dylan of Africa" - and Marianne Faithfull. The lyrics are in French and English, with the English being credited to Roger Waters.
https://youtu.be/hfehKorG_Qs

[space triangle]

He wasn't encouraging from DSOTM on.

That is not entirely true. Even in the "miserable" time during recording of 'The Final Cut' album, Roger asked David something along the lines of: ,"Dave, do you have any new songs written''? I remember that interview well, but I don't seem to own it anymore (maybe Ziggy can help me with that interview/ 'quote')?.

[penguinzzz]

I think many observers of pre-Dark Side PF would say that Waters wrote a lot of good songs in that era despite his musical limitations, and certainly wasn't 'behind' the others in this respect.

"If", "Summer '68", and "Fat Old Sun" are all good songs.

"If" was the 18th song Roger wrote.

"Summer '68" was the 4th song Rick wrote.

"Fat Old Sun" was the 2nd song Dave wrote.

Lyrically, they were the best post-Barrett songs up to that point, as much as I personally like "Paintbox", "Julia Dream", "Green is the Colour", and "Embryo". Neither Dave nor Rick had any interest in writing about fictional situations, and they were both much more focused on developing musical textures. Had either of them felt more compelled to express themselves lyrically, and worked through it the way that Roger did, they would certainly have written great songs, but their sound would likely not have evolved into what you hear on Meddle and Dark Side of the Moon. "If" may as well have been the 6th song Roger wrote; if Dave had been responsible for "Point Me at the Sky", fans would argue that he should never write lyrics again.

Your logic is a bit baffling. I was replying to your statement 'Waters' writing really didn't catch up to theirs til '72'. As you've helpfully pointed out, he wrote far more songs than the others in this period. So where is the 'catching up'? Of course a lot of these songs may be found wanting in various ways, but as I said many are considered rather good.

As for the assertion that Gilmour & Wright would 'certainly' have written great lyrics if they'd really wanted to, obviously there's no way of knowing is there? Your underlying point appears to be that Waters has no actual lyrical talent - it's all been done through hard work. I think there may be a bit of both, though it's probably not worth getting into a whole talent/skill debate.

Roger obviously wrote some vocal melodies himself (though very few before The Wall). He worked them out alone, and usually for Dave's vocal range, not his (which is very limited).

This is also confusing. Which pre-Wall songs by Waters had 'vocal melodies' written by other band members?

[ZiggyZipgun]

That is not entirely true. Even in the "miserable" time during recording of 'The Final Cut' album, Roger asked David something along the lines of: ,"Dave, do you have any new songs written''? I remember that interview well, but I don't seem to own it anymore (maybe Ziggy can help me with that interview/ 'quote')?.

Yeah...he wasn't asking Dave to contribute lyrics. As they've both said, Dave wasn't happy with Roger's music for some of the songs, but didn't have any other ideas ready to go. Roger wasn't willing to postpone the recording sessions to work on the material together. If Dave had brought in "Murder" in a nearly completed form, it wasn't finding it's way onto The Final Cut.

I was replying to your statement 'Waters' writing really didn't catch up to theirs til '72'. As you've helpfully pointed out, he wrote far more songs than the others in this period. So where is the 'catching up'?

I was suggesting that very few of Roger's songs prior to Dark Side of the Moon were as good as the only songs Rick and Dave had written in that same time.

Your underlying point appears to be that Waters has no actual lyrical talent - it's all been done through hard work. I think there may be a bit of both, though it's probably not worth getting into a whole talent/skill debate.

I'd say they were all equally talented at writing lyrics, but again, Roger worked much harder at it while the others worked much harder on their music, obviously.

This is also confusing. Which pre-Wall songs by Waters had 'vocal melodies' written by other band members?

This would be hard to know for certain, as my search of the copyright database has shown that they credited things differently in the late '60s and early '70s than they did later on. If we could find something where Roger was not credited with the music at all, that would answer it. But for example, something like "Fearless", which I think is in G major (I haven't played it on guitar in 20 years because it uses an open E minor tuning). The vocal is very similar to "Fat Old Sun" (same key), and they both perfectly suit Gilmour's falsetto range; it's also very similar to "Shine On" (key of G minor, I believe), which Roger admitted was difficult for him to sing because it was at the very edge of his vocal range. At that point, he had started to feel it was important for him to sing his own songs (probably eyeing an exit strategy into a solo career); and yet, it's not written for his vocal range! Strange.

[Kerry King]

according to the U.S. Copyright Database, "Stay" is credited as "Words and music by Roger Waters and Rick Wright."

Thank you.

according to Andy Mabbett's Pink Floyd: The Music & The Mystery, the lyrics are credited to Waters and the music is credited to Wright,

I wonder where it's credited that way other than Mabbett's book?! (and wikipedia which probably got it from Mabbett's book)

[ZiggyZipgun]

Thank you.

But as I said, all of their songs were credited that way back then - lots of "words and music by Roger Waters and David Gilmour."

[theaussiefloydian]

But as I said, all of their songs were credited that way back then - lots of "words and music by Roger Waters and David Gilmour."

Yeah, it's like "Written by Lennon and McCartney".

[Kerry King]

But as I said, all of their songs were credited that way back then - lots of "words and music by Roger Waters and David Gilmour."

Yeah, it's like "Written by Lennon and McCartney".

Yes, well, I read album credits. I can see Wright/Waters in the credits. It seems plausible that Wright may have had a few cheesy lines and Waters helped him finish it. Or maybe it's all Waters. If all we have is Mabbett I wouldn't say it's definitive. Not that I really care. The lyrics are a bit weak. That could be a reflection of the film. Some interviewer should ask Waters about it. If all of the lyrics are his he's undoubtedly embarrassed by them now.

[theaussiefloydian]

I can see Wright/Waters in the credits. It seems plausible that Wright may have had a few cheesy lines and Waters helped him finish it. Or maybe it's all Waters.

Either are possible, though I feel it's more likely it's the former given the similarity in content to "Summer '68".

[ZiggyZipgun]

If all we have is Mabbett I wouldn't say it's definitive.

I emailed Andy, so we'll just have to wait and see. He was the editor of The Amazing Pudding for a decade, and this wasn't the first Pink Floyd book he'd written, so he might know his shit.